RAW talent vs Coaching

[Aslan]

I'But what I do want to say here is that this specific area of Michigan there really isn't much coaching available.

Not just Michigan. I have the same problem in Southern California. There ARE a few silver level coaches...but they are very busy and very pricey! Everyone mentions Mark Baker...and I've seen that guy and talked with him at clinics...and the minute the clinic is over he's getting his laptop and stuff to start giving lessons. Even at a higher price point...his time gets booked FAST! And I'd love to meet with him...but at $75+ per lesson...I just can't afford that...much less see him on a regular basis. I got a daughter taking horseback riding lessons and kids take the priority. And Camp Bakkes?? I would LOVE to do that!!! But we're talking $2000+. I don't even have enough money to pay off my $3600 credit card bill and get a much needed tune up on my motorcycle...PLUS my daughter wants a horse...PLUS I got a divorce coming up that is sure to cost me about 32% of my income (and potentially cause me to have to move to TEXAS....the devil's armpit). I'm trying to scrape money together just to get a $160 4-ball roller because I'm on the brink of throwing my shoulder out carrying a 2-ball shoulder bag plus a single ball bag every night....and I figure the 4-bag roller is cheaper than back surgery.

Cliff Notes: Want coaching...no money.

I contacted him and he said the USBC didn't even tell him they were doing this and he doesn't give out free lessons - he is too busy. IMO bad business approach - if he spent a mere 30 minutes with me and I liked his coaching I would have definitely paid for more sessions - I wasn't truly just looking for 1 session as a freebie. His loss.

Yeah. Dumb move. I will say, to his credit, my local pro shop guy...he gives people great deals on balls, bags, drilling, and tends to give away little stuff like powder and towels...and I've gotten 3 lessons from him and he refuses to take my money. May "seem" like a bad business model...but because of it....I've personally referred multiple, multiple bowlers to him for everything from drilling to balls to shoes to paid lessons...and he's always busy during leagues.

I want more routine lessons from Rob...but driving to Vegas is horrible. Plus, once I get there I'm going to HAVE to bowl or else I'll be losing money at the poker tables to avoid losing money to "escorts", to avoid losing money in slot machines, etc.... Plus, if I go out there I'll have to visit a high school friend and my cousin or they'll get ticked that I went out there and didn't even stop and say hello...so ughhh...

[MICHAEL]

It was interesting that at the beginning of the clinic yesterday, the question was asked, "How many of you have a coach that you see on an on-going basis. Some of the participants raised their hands, while every coach, including the three professional Touring bowlers all raised their hands. Professional atheletes have coaches; all of them, for a reason. As to your bad experience with the free lesson, I can tell you that I received an email from the USBC asking if I would participate in the program. I said yes. I have a hunch that the person you contacted might have forgotten about the email. On behalf of the USBC Coaching Program, I offer my apologies. If you ever get to Las Vegas, I will gladly give you a free lesson to make up for his oversight.

It's a lot like AA! Alcoholic l Anonymous. Coaches are in many ways a lot lit Shrinks people go to for advise! Some of it good, some of it crap! LOL

Is Coaching needed for a gifted bowler who never had lessions..... NO,,, absolutely! I know a whole bunch that fall into that, THEY DON"T NEED ADVICE, or even want it! ( They are at places many, ( with coaching on this site will never be including mystelf ), because of RAW TALENT! They picked it up all on their own!

I think the Pro's on TV that always have them Coaches sitting next to them, are there as a SECURITY BLANKET! Like s young child carrying a security blanket. Those Pros know it all by this point in their profession. I doub't any great revalations are given that make a difference....

They just listen, and node their heads, and have replys like: " what do you think" "Do you think its time for a ball change" " I can help you, but first you need to help yourself" LOL

RAW TALENT ..... YOU EITHER HAVE IT,,,,, OR YOU DON"T! Knowledge is IMPORTANT, but that can be found at this GREAT WEB SITE! I have learned a bunch for people like Bowl1820, Rob,,, Aslan,,,, Mike White,,, but ,,,, BUT what makes the ICEMAN,,,,, TRULY COOL,,,, well its RAW Talent!! Never had a coach but did get ONE introduction lesion along with a ball form a X pro bowler that lives here in town!

O I am not bragging.... LOL But I do have some Pretty good results considering I just got started in bowling a few years back!

Would Coaching take me to the next level,,,, I doubt it! Its a lot like going to Church! You can go to Church and have some guy/gal tell you what he thinks your life should be like, and how to interpret the bible, or you can stay home and read it yourself and come to your own conclusions!

RAW TALENT,,,,, GET THE best track Coach in the world, have him coach you to run the 100 yard dash! Will you run a 9.9? NO.. LOL Can he improve you time,,,, maybe,,, but only a tenth or so maybe.... (

IF you need a coach,,,, I understand,,,,, I am not saying don't go see one! JUST don't think MAGIC is going to happen! With a FEW I am sure it works.

I know that this is going to make Granny and Mike puke, but without any coaching, RA, Lupus, broken neck, herniated disk lower back, stenosis, scoliosis, can't wear shoes so I bowl in sandls non slide, I bowl two sanctioned 300 this last year, along with a several 700s, including a 780 my best. Having walked Iron many times hundreds of feet in the sky, you learn to develop a keen sense of balance and focus! Maybe that's my secret. All the above at 65! Started bowling late, in my early 60s... 62 I believe.

[Dude779]

Don't want to ruffle any feathers here, since I am new to the boards. If you are such a elite Raw TALENT how come your not bowling against Pete Weber? You brought up golf, one of my passions for the last few years, And even thought I think I am okay at the game my handicap a 7, would I challenge Tiger Woods who in your words has RAW TALENT, HELL NO! But guess what Tiger has had a couple of coaches, lastly Sean Foley, could Sean beat Tiger on the links, not a chance in hell. But could he teach Tiger a few things YES! Even though I consider myself OK, I still meet with my coach every couple weeks, because he can figure out whats wrong with my game. Why knock Aslan for not having a woman? The single life is the best, granted I got a good woman I've been with for years, wouldn't trade it for anything. That's another subject. You didn't even respond to what the man was saying, it sounds like it to me you are living in your own world where you think there isn't anything better than the ALMIGHTY ICEMAN, which trust me dude there are other things revolving. Anyone here on the Boards can roll on a THS, and probably do well, like Aslan was saying where is the challenge? I just got done practicing on a cheetah pattern, do you have that experience? Or do you prefer the beer leaguge THS? Nothing wrong with that I love beer, but prefer to challenge myself. I just got back into bowling after a 16 year lay off, yea I am trying to learn new things like resurfacing and what not, but new to bowling, nope. But seeing what I have seen so far, you will proably issue a BS challenge, so be it. Take a bike ride up to Michigan, we can bowl,golf, and go to Milan Dragway where my ZX1100 screams. Just bring your money! Sorry if I offended anyone else on The Boards, not my intention, I am new here and just tired of the BS. If certain people don't like it ban me>

[Amyers]

Don't want to ruffle any feathers here, since I am new to the boards. If you are such a elite Raw TALENT how come your not bowling against Pete Weber? You brought up golf, one of my passions for the last few years, And even thought I think I am okay at the game my handicap a 7, would I challenge Tiger Woods who in your words has RAW TALENT, HELL NO! But guess what Tiger has had a couple of coaches, lastly Sean Foley, could Sean beat Tiger on the links, not a chance in hell. But could he teach Tiger a few things YES! Even though I consider myself OK, I still meet with my coach every couple weeks, because he can figure out whats wrong with my game. Why knock Aslan for not having a woman? The single life is the best, granted I got a good woman I've been with for years, wouldn't trade it for anything. That's another subject. You didn't even respond to what the man was saying, it sounds like it to me you are living in your own world where you think there isn't anything better than the ALMIGHTY ICEMAN, which trust me dude there are other things revolving. Anyone here on the Boards can roll on a THS, and probably do well, like Aslan was saying where is the challenge? I just got done practicing on a cheetah pattern, do you have that experience? Or do you prefer the beer leaguge THS? Nothing wrong with that I love beer, but prefer to challenge myself. I just got back into bowling after a 16 year lay off, yea I am trying to learn new things like resurfacing and what not, but new to bowling, nope. But seeing what I have seen so far, you will proably issue a BS challenge, so be it. Take a bike ride up to Michigan, we can bowl,golf, and go to Milan Dragway where my ZX1100 screams. Just bring your money! Sorry if I offended anyone else on The Boards, not my intention, I am new here and just tired of the BS. If certain people don't like it ban me>

its cool Dude if we didn't have opinions what fun would this site be

[MICHAEL]

Don't want to ruffle any feathers here, since I am new to the boards. If you are such a elite Raw TALENT how come your not bowling against Pete Weber? You brought up golf, one of my passions for the last few years, And even thought I think I am okay at the game my handicap a 7, would I challenge Tiger Woods who in your words has RAW TALENT, HELL NO! But guess what Tiger has had a couple of coaches, lastly Sean Foley, could Sean beat Tiger on the links, not a chance in hell. But could he teach Tiger a few things YES! Even though I consider myself OK, I still meet with my coach every couple weeks, because he can figure out whats wrong with my game. Why knock Aslan for not having a woman? The single life is the best, granted I got a good woman I've been with for years, wouldn't trade it for anything. That's another subject. You didn't even respond to what the man was saying, it sounds like it to me you are living in your own world where you think there isn't anything better than the ALMIGHTY ICEMAN, which trust me dude there are other things revolving. Anyone here on the Boards can roll on a THS, and probably do well, like Aslan was saying where is the challenge? I just got done practicing on a cheetah pattern, do you have that experience? Or do you prefer the beer leaguge THS? Nothing wrong with that I love beer, but prefer to challenge myself. I just got back into bowling after a 16 year lay off, yea I am trying to learn new things like resurfacing and what not, but new to bowling, nope. But seeing what I have seen so far, you will proably issue a BS challenge, so be it. Take a bike ride up to Michigan, we can bowl,golf, and go to Milan Dragway where my ZX1100 screams. Just bring your money! Sorry if I offended anyone else on The Boards, not my intention, I am new here and just tired of the BS. If certain people don't like it ban me>

OUCH.... I have a son that was Mr golf in High School, and got a scholarship playing golf dude! Want to play him.... ?? I am a 65 years old. Fricken broken down bowling machine.... YOU ARE NEW HERE,,, LOL.... I kid Aslan, as have many on this site, I doubt he needs you to defend him!

I have had many crotch rockets myself, and did do the Kansas City Drag strip in my younger days, still probably could but more into touring now!

My son is 40, not sure your age dude, but I would put my money on HIM ANYDAY,,,, since he is right at scratch on the easy courses around here!

Hey you jump on your ZX and come down this way,,,,, bring your bowling balls, Coach, and golf clubs....LOL LIGHTEN UP DUDE!!

This is America,,, Land of free speech, and ideas! If you don't agree with me, SO WHAT? I stand by my thoughts on everything I have said.. (

Aslan,,,, you have a defender..... LOL LOL!!

[rv driver]

I think the Pro's on TV that always have them Coaches sitting next to them, are there as a SECURITY BLANKET! Like s young child carrying a security blanket. Those Pros know it all by this point in their profession. I doub't any great revalations are given that make a difference....

IF you need a coach,,,, I understand,,,,, I am not saying don't go see one! JUST don't think MAGIC is going to happen!

First of all, the pros have coaches for a reason, "security blanket" not being among them. They want/need an "extra eye" -- another opinion that's more objective. When you're in the zone like that, your perspective is very subjective. you need someone who can see the bigger picture.

Nobody's talking about "magic" here. We're talking incremental adjustments. In the beginning, progress is going to be made in big chunks as the basics are learned and mastered. Laster on, progress is more subtle as smaller adjustments are made and nuances are mastered.

[MICHAEL]

First of all, the pros have coaches for a reason, "security blanket" not being among them. They want/need an "extra eye" -- another opinion that's more objective. When you're in the zone like that, your perspective is very subjective. you need someone who can see the bigger picture.

maybe we bowlers should have a Third Eye located on our forehead...( Don't tell me that they are not in a WAY A SECURITY blanket in a way!
someone to bounce thoughts and ideas off on! Most of the time the PRO KNOWS what he needs to do, sometimes it must help to have that other person to bounce your own thoughts off of! I am good at bouncing ideas off of myself! I look at my shot and analize it each time I rowl the ball.

Nobody's talking about "magic" here. We're talking incremental adjustments. In the beginning, progress is going to be made in big chunks as the basics are learned and mastered. Laster on, progress is more subtle as smaller adjustments are made and nuances are mastered.

YES,,, that's what all average to above serious bowlers all do, I thought??

LOOK... I am not by any stretch of the imagination that I am a 220 bowler,,, but,,,, BUT on a good day I can do things that some bowlers don't!! .... I have had several 290s even 298,,,plus my last two 300s! I must have the gift, even at 65! Sure I have the body of finely turned athletic machine! I work on it 4 days a week! How many out there have a sanctioned 780.... 750s ,,several low 700s

Everything I have learned about bowling was RIGHT HERE on bowling board.com, along with Google search's! The REST is "THE GIFT"! I hate that I waited till I was 62 to start bowling! Who knows what a giant in the field of bowling I might have been????

"Of all Sad words of tongue or pen, the saddest are these, WHAT MIGHT HAVE BEEN"!

I will get that 800 this summer,,, mark it down in your memory that Iceman said it, and then did it! (

That will be BIG,,,, and I will do it WITHOUT ANY COACHING at the Ripe age of 65! I am as hard as a Block OF ICE,,, can push Iron Still, and I can feel IT in my bones just before things happen! 800,,,,, ICEMAN HAS you in his sights!!!!!

[rv driver]

YES,,, that's what all average to above serious bowlers all do, I thought??

LOOK... I am not by any stretch of the imagination that I am a 220 bowler,,, but,,,, BUT on a good day I can do things that some bowlers don't!! .... I have had several 290s even 298,,,plus my last two 300s! I must have the gift, even at 65! Sure I have the body of finely turned athletic machine! I work on it 4 days a week! How many out there have a sanctioned 780.... 750s ,,several low 700s

Everything I have learned about bowling was RIGHT HERE on bowling board.com, along with Google search's! The REST is "THE GIFT"! I hate that I waited till I was 62 to start bowling! Who knows what a giant in the field of bowling I might have been????

"Of all Sad words of tongue or pen, the saddest are these, WHAT MIGHT HAVE BEEN"!

I will get that 800 this summer,,, mark it down in your memory that Iceman said it, and then did it! (

That will be BIG,,,, and I will do it WITHOUT ANY COACHING at the Ripe age of 65! I am as hard as a Block OF ICE,,, can push Iron Still, and I can feel IT in my bones just before things happen! 800,,,,, ICEMAN HAS you in his sights!!!!!

Is it getting warm in here, or is it hot flashes? 8-P

[RobLV1]

It's not only getting warm, it's also getting pretty deep!

Seriously, Iceman is right! No amount of coaching can replace natural ability. That being said, there is no bowler on the planet that cannot benefit from good coaching in one way or another. It's not about turning everyone into a 220 average bowler or helping every bowler get to the PBA Tour. At the clinic yesterday I was able to help a senior bowler with very bad knees to modify his approach in such a way that not only will his scores go up, but he will bowl with less pain, and will probably be able to bowl for many more years. Will he ever compete with Pete Weber? No. But he was still able to take the help that I gave him and use it to increase his enjoyment of the game.

Is there any bowler out there who doesn't want to improve? I don't think so. If you average 120, then you want to average 130. If you average 200, you want to average 220. If a coach can help, why not take advantage of it?

[Aslan]

I know that this is going to make Granny and Mike puke, but without any coaching, RA, Lupus, broken neck, herniated disk lower back, stenosis, scoliosis, can't wear shoes so I bowl in sandls non slide, I bowl two sanctioned 300 this last year, along with a several 700s, including a 780 my best. Having walked Iron many times hundreds of feet in the sky, you learn to develop a keen sense of balance and focus! Maybe that's my secret. All the above at 65! Started bowling late, in my early 60s... 62 I believe.

If you are such a elite Raw TALENT how come your not bowling against Pete Weber?

EXACTLY New Guy. And the answer, although Mike will have about 1200 excuses, is he's not that good and as long as he doesn't get a PBA card or go to the USBC Open...he won't have to learn that first hand. I know that sounds mean...but I see MORE people like Ice...with 200+ averages who are deathly, deathly afraid of REAL competition...and virtually ZERO bowlers like me that STRIVE for that competition.

Maybe I'm wrong. But think about it...Iceman has a team of 4 guys that he "claims" are 220+ average bowlers with EXCEPTIONAL skills. He could take that team to Reno...and they'd theoretically have a shot at all events, doubles, and singles. They could be well on their way to not only "glory" by being National Champions...but potentially Olympic aspirations...or at WORST a job as a bowling ball rep...a NICE gig for a little extra retirement income for a guy that loves to bowl!!

There's no DOWN to that scenario. If Iceman and his league of extraordinary gentlemen are as good as he claims...he has ZERO reason to stay home in St. Louis. But he will NEVER...NEVER bowl against VDub much less Pete Weber. Like most high average bowlers...his ego has FAR too much to lose...so he'll stay in St. Louis as a self proclaimed LEGEND...and I'm sure he'll rack up another 6-7 300-games. And I don't want to take away from that because he's a good bowler and he deserves credit. Lord knows I can't throw 7 strikes in a row much less 12. But don't be fooled. Those that CAN bowl at a high level DO bowl at a high level. Everyone else bowls at their local center and brags about how great they are without ever having a lesson.

Why knock Aslan for not having a woman? The single life is the best, granted I got a good woman I've been with for years, wouldn't trade it for anything. That's another subject.

Ice DOES have me there. I mean, I am somewhat undateable and a bit of a lepper when it comes to the ladies. But thats okay. Maybe God me ugly so I would focus less on clothes and girls and more on bowling?? Its all good. I've been with my fair share of nice and beautiful ladies over the past 40 years. Probably over 30. So it's all good. I think Iceman wants to distract me from my emerging bowling awesomeness by using ladies...which I admit IS a fine strategy.

You didn't even respond to what the man was saying, it sounds like it to me you are living in your own world where you think there isn't anything better than the ALMIGHTY ICEMAN, which trust me dude there are other things revolving. Anyone here on the Boards can roll on a THS, and probably do well, like Aslan was saying where is the challenge? I just got done practicing on a cheetah pattern, do you have that experience? Or do you prefer the beer leaguge THS? Nothing wrong with that I love beer, but prefer to challenge myself. I just got back into bowling after a 16 year lay off, yea I am trying to learn new things like resurfacing and what not, but new to bowling, nope.

Wow. Less than 15 posts and you already figured out Iceman! Well done. Most therapists would spend 3 years to get that good of an assesssment.

Sorry if I offended anyone else on The Boards, not my intention, I am new here and just tired of the BS. If certain people don't like it ban me>

Whoa...whoa...whoa....careful. Don't tempt that Gods of banning. As one of only two that have ever been put through the "trials"....you DON'T want that!! Granted, if the same rules still apply...Iceman would have to not only vote for you to BE banned...but find 9 other people to agree. So...it's a pretty unlikely scenario. I'm as hated as Adolf Hitler and I only got 6 votes...and Iceman actually didn't vote against me on principle! Yes...while he's as delusionary as they come....he IS a man of principle....and I respect that.