Is it the BALL, or the SKILL of the Bowler

[vdubtx]

I agree. The lane condition dictates the equipment that is to be used, and the player's skill level determines how successful he can be with the right ball in his hand, when playing the correct line for the pattern. The best players can do three things: figure out how to play the pattern, figure out what ball will do the job, and change the rotation on their ball to create the most area to carry the most corner pins. This, along with their ability to consistently repeat shots is what makes them the best bowlers.

Shot repeatability is paramount to being the best bowler. I experienced that first hand in Reno couple weeks ago. I just could not keep my shot consistent and it cost me.

[MICHAEL]

Answer

1. skill of bowler! You can have the best ball in the world, but if you were not born to bowl, you just might never reach that level of a 220 and
above average, even on league house oil.

GOOD coaching is a Good thing, if you can find a good one. Many different philosophies on how to bowl, but even then it does not guaranty you that you will be, or EVER be a 220 average bowler, on house conditions. Its not easy even with knowledge!

no magic ball, but RAW SKILL can do it... I know so many bowlers that don't even know the brand of ball they are throwing, and have NEVER had a lesion, but bowl high into the 220's 30s

I am not sure about Rob, and his average, with the treasure chest of knowledge he has. THE RAW TALENT comes to play!

Their is nothing easy about a 220 and above average on league house oil! I know a few coach's that don't bowl at that level. RAW TALENT again.

Best ball on the market, (what ever that might be), drilled for your style of bowling, on house oil will not get you to that level, unless

YOU HAVE THE GIFT/RAW TALENT.

Is skill the same thing as Raw talent? I think they are related, but not the same! Does coaching help, in regards to skill, YES!

Will it get you to that pentacle of 220 average, not necessarily, the RAW talent come to play also!

I haven't reached that average yet, and may never, but I do have respect for those that do,,,, they have the SKILL and RAW TALENT!

It amazes me how I have had a couple 300s this last year in a short period of time, and that almost 800!! And then can be so average many other times... I seem to have the Raw talent (NOW AND THEN),, LOL,,,, but it COMES and GOES!! LOL

A ball is nothing but a tool, if you don't have the skills, knowledge, and RAW talent, the magic might never HAPPEN in this life time for some of us. lol,,,,, but its still ONE HELL OF A GAME,,, and beats playing bat mitten!!

[Aslan]

Looks to me like the oil pattern has the most significant effect on scoring.

I get what you're saying, but oil pattern really isn't a fair choice because it's outside the bowler's control. Unless you're Iceman and refuse to bowl outside 1-2 alleys in KC where you KNOW the oil pattern is going to be a certain way...a bowler can't "choose" an oil pattern or "develop" their "oil pattern". It's like saying the biggest affect on a race horse is the track conditions. That MAY be true. Some horses run better on wet conditions and some struggle. But it's irrelevant to a discussion about whether the horse or the jockey has the biggest effect on a race.

As to the rest of Iceman's answer to his own question, this is just a continuation of 2 other threads about how Iceman is naturally gifted and so is his son and so is the rest of the people on his team and natural gifts trump lessons and everything else. And my answer is the same one I gave the last 2 times we beat this horse...until any of the aforementioned players test their 220+ averages against real competition in real tournaments or scratch leagues or sport leagues...then all we're debating is whether or not bigfoot exists.

If Iceman and his crew of merry men are a good as we keep hearing...with all their NATURAL ABILITY...they should be a SHOE IN to take home the coveted Eagle at the USBC Open in El Paso in 2015. Of matter of fact, if they are THAT good...might want to just skip the USBC amateur event and get your PBA card and start performing on the BIG stage! Like I said, I'm not too proud to admit when I'm wrong. If I see Iceman out there against PDW or Belmo...I'll be cheering like heck for Iceman and come on here admitting how wrong I was and praising Iceman's superior GIFT. But UNITL THEN...his team racking up 210+ averages beating "Spuds Bar and Restaurant" and "VFW 2150 Lady's Auxillary" doesn't impress me quite so much.

I just participated in a tough tournament this Saturday. And it was a humbling experience. And while it did sting...and DID momentarily make me question whether or not I should continue to strive to be the best bowler I can be (rather than just focusing on something else because I suck at bowling)...it has ultimately made me even MORE diligent to get better. I wonder. I wonder how Iceman or his team of gifted individuals would respond after such an experience.

I may not have Iceman's GIFT of being instantly the greatest bowler ever. But I do have a different GIFT...the gift of persistence and determination. And yes, it'll be harder to do it this way (than if I had the GIFT), but the result will still be the same or better.

[Amyers]

I get what you're saying, but oil pattern really isn't a fair choice because it's outside the bowler's control. Unless you're Iceman and refuse to bowl outside 1-2 alleys in KC where you KNOW the oil pattern is going to be a certain way...a bowler can't "choose" an oil pattern or "develop" their "oil pattern". It's like saying the biggest affect on a race horse is the track conditions. That MAY be true. Some horses run better on wet conditions and some struggle. But it's irrelevant to a discussion about whether the horse or the jockey has the biggest effect on a race.

As to the rest of Iceman's answer to his own question, this is just a continuation of 2 other threads about how Iceman is naturally gifted and so is his son and so is the rest of the people on his team and natural gifts trump lessons and everything else. And my answer is the same one I gave the last 2 times we beat this horse...until any of the aforementioned players test their 220+ averages against real competition in real tournaments or scratch leagues or sport leagues...then all we're debating is whether or not bigfoot exists.

If Iceman and his crew of merry men are a good as we keep hearing...with all their NATURAL ABILITY...they should be a SHOE IN to take home the coveted Eagle at the USBC Open in El Paso in 2015. Of matter of fact, if they are THAT good...might want to just skip the USBC amateur event and get your PBA card and start performing on the BIG stage! Like I said, I'm not too proud to admit when I'm wrong. If I see Iceman out there against PDW or Belmo...I'll be cheering like heck for Iceman and come on here admitting how wrong I was and praising Iceman's superior GIFT. But UNITL THEN...his team racking up 210+ averages beating "Spuds Bar and Restaurant" and "VFW 2150 Lady's Auxillary" doesn't impress me quite so much.

I just participated in a tough tournament this Saturday. And it was a humbling experience. And while it did sting...and DID momentarily make me question whether or not I should continue to strive to be the best bowler I can be (rather than just focusing on something else because I suck at bowling)...it has ultimately made me even MORE diligent to get better. I wonder. I wonder how Iceman or his team of gifted individuals would respond after such an experience.

I may not have Iceman's GIFT of being instantly the greatest bowler ever. But I do have a different GIFT...the gift of persistence and determination. And yes, it'll be harder to do it this way (than if I had the GIFT), but the result will still be the same or better.

Mike missed the point of the thread. The oil pattern definitely has the greatest impact on scoring, unfortunately we were discussing the importance of ball selection oil patterns are static you can't influence them and the people you are competing against are on the same oil pattern so it doesn't matter except how it affects you. Having the right equipment for the right situation can make you more successful will it fix it if you are spraying the ball all over the place NO. But if you are under balled as Aslan learned at his tournament it very difficult to be successful its the same on the other side if you are on dryer conditions and have an aggressive ball unless its a normal part of your game to loft the gutters its going to negatively affect you. From what I hear on the sport patterns this gets even more specific to drillings and surface.

[Aslan]

Here's another case for the equipment side of things:

I bowled against a guy this weekend that probably was the most skilled of the 5 us bowling on our pair. He was a senior, low speed, lower rev. In terms of "skill", this guy bowled 2 straight games with only ONE open frame...EVERY single mark was a spare! He didn't strike ONCE in two games. THAT takes skill. That takes MAD skill!

But did he win? No. He had the 3rd highest score, just above me. In one game I actually beat him. The two guys that finished ahead of him...both were 'decent bowlers...one was pretty darn good actually. But they had more open frames. More errant shots. More "missing their marks". But they finished higher because they had good rev rates and could create better angle into the pocket. So, they STRUCK.

Who was most "skilled"? The old guy that finished 3rd. Had he had a stronger ball or been able to impart more revolutions on his shot...with his level of spare shooting...he'd have DESTROYED us. Had those other two guys had weaker equipment and been forced to rely on accuracy and finesse...they'd have shot around what I shot.

I don't 100% agree that you can't out bowl a bad ball reaction. BUT...I think the RIGHT ball reaction can make a much better bowler out of a worse bowler. And I think a bowler is at a really big disadvantage if they have to try and make a bad ball do something it's not designed to. I'm not talking about quick surface changes. I'm talking about adding or removing revolutions. I'm talking about changing your approach. I'm talking about adding loft. All of these things CAN be done to get a "bad ball" to act "right"...but thats a LOT of work that your opponent with the correct ball choice doesn't have to mess with.

And lets be clear...it's not just a matter of "ball choice". Some players only own ONE or TWO or THREE balls. Many bowlers can't afford massive arsenals and 6-ball professional roller bags. For them, it's not a "choice".

[rv driver]

I like what one poster said about it being the knowledge and experience of selecting the right ball for the conditions, having that ball available, and being able to make the adjustments necessary to "beat the oil."

bowling, as I see it, can't really be divided out, as Iceman wants to do, because bowling is a synthesis of human being, ball, lane, pins, and oil. Bowlers are good because they know enough and are skilled enough to select and then use the right equipment in the right situation.

[MICHAEL]

I like what one poster said about it being the knowledge and experience of selecting the right ball for the conditions, having that ball available, and being able to make the adjustments necessary to "beat the oil."

bowling, as I see it, can't really be divided out, as Iceman wants to do, because bowling is a synthesis of human being, ball, lane, pins, and oil. Bowlers are good because they know enough and are skilled enough to select and then use the right equipment in the right situation.

First off ASLAN, Iceman bowled on 4 different lanes two complexly different AMF houses, one closed now, Gladstone, and Retro Bowl. How many do you bowl on league.? I am getting tired of that one chosen lane BS! Do you even read my threads? Or like me not reading but part of yours, do you do the same thing?
ASLAN:

Again I know right off hand several guys Tyrone being one of them that has just ONE BOWLING BALL, and bowls a 220 plus average. I asked him this last winter season what brand ball he threw, and he said, he didn't know,,, and it was so worn that you could not tell. He is one hell of a bowler because he has the gift!! He has That RAW TALENT, and it comes natural without coaching... SURE THIS is HOUSE Pattern league bowling, but he does it not EVER Having had a lesion! RAW,,,, GIFT! ( I wish I had it, never, EVER insinuated that I HAD RAW TALENT!! LOL

I don't have the gift, if I did it would be worn out at my age! I don't have at this time a 220 plus average on league!!

What I do have is weird,,, the ability to do way above my average every now and then on league.

This last year I had many good bowlers come up to me and tell me that they had been bowing for many years, and no 300s!

On a given day I can do a strong 700, and close 800! My RAW TALENT is at an age where it only comes out every now and then. I am a 190 to 200 bower at this time depending on which league. I am in no way a GIFTED 220 average bowler!! I may NEVER be that good! My RAW gift only comes in spurts! LOL

To be honest, my goal is realistic! I want that 800 with one more 300 in that series... this summer, or next fall. Then Iceman can die with a smile on his bowling face, and go to Bowling heaven!!! (

[vdubtx]

What I do have is weird,,, the ability to do way above my average every now and then on league.

This last year I had many good bowlers come up to me and tell me that they had been bowing for many years, and no 300s!

On a given day I can do a strong 700, and close 800! My RAW TALENT is at an age where it only comes out every now and then. I am a 190 to 200 bower at this time depending on which league. I am in no way a GIFTED 220 average bowler!! I may NEVER be that good! My RAW gift only comes in spurts! LOL

To be honest, my goal is realistic! I want that 800 with one more 300 in that series... this summer, or next fall. Then Iceman can die with a smile on his bowling face, and go to Bowling heaven!!! (

That's not weird ICEMAN, that is normal. We all have our good weeks on the lanes, and then we have the really good weeks where nothing can go wrong. Keep learning the way you have in the last couple years, and it will all fall into place once again. Power through the tough times on the lanes, and savor the good ones.

[Aslan]

Ice…ya know I love ya man…but either you and your Dude and son and teammates are God's gift to bowling and should be praised for their natural gifts…or they're just regular bowlers. And IF they/you are the greatest gift to bowling…then it's time to test that. And there are multiple, multiple, multiple ways to do that.

[dnhoffman]

bout 96% bowler, 4% ball