Need rules clarification

[classygranny]

First let me say, my computer absolutely hates the bowl.com site for rules downloading. And then, by the time I get that far, if I do, then reading and finding what I want is usually very harsh on my patience level. So, here I ask for opinions and hard data from one and all...especially the rule King - Bowl.

Background: We started the summer league on Mondays in May. Our team had three members so we were in need of another bowler. We were all going to be gone the first week of bowling and had requested that we post bowl after our return.

The secretary had "forgotten" we wouldn't be there, so when our fourth member showed up on beginning night, she let him bowl with their team.

The next Monday, we bowled (Secretary was absent) during league bowling - the four of us. Three of us established new averages, and the fourth already had an average from bowling the week prior.

On Thursday, the three of us post-bowled for the first week of bowling. I didn't think the fourth bowler was eligible since he had already bowled with her team for the first week. We, or I "assumed" that our averages/handicaps for the post bowl would be based on the week we had just bowled on Monday and a vacancy due to no fourth bowler the first week, and if so, we would have won 4 points.

Come Monday, the league sheet shows that we haven't won but 2 points. I asked the secretary to give me the calculations for how she figured all the games, but I have not received anything as of yet.

I believe the rules state that the team has to bowl together, no individual pre- or post-bowling. Wouldn't our fourth member be their member for the first week and then transfer to us for the following week, with us having a vacancy on the first week? Also, wouldn't the averages be calculated as "current" - meaning at the time they were bowled?

What is the proper way to score the games for the first and second week of bowling - who is on what team, and what average is used?

Thanks for all the insight!

[Amyers]

I'm not an expert and I'm sure someone will come along with more knowledge than me. Some of this may also vary depending on the rules specific to your league. All I can tell you is how this would be handled in my house. I see a few problems here at least in how my house determines these thing could be different.

#1. All post bowling has to be complete before the league bowls for the next week so your scores wouldn't have counted as they were bowled after the next week.

#2. Post bowling is only allowed as a team you had a member of your team who bowled during the league as such post bowling was no longer an option his scores would count with the other three members of the team getting a blind.

#3. Did they include the 4th member into their team scores or as I mentioned in #2 which is the way I believe it should have been scored

#4. Your averages would have been set from your week 2 scores as your post bowling is ineligible

I don't know if this is correct for sure but I believe this would be how it would have been handled in my leagues

[bowl1820]

Background: We started the summer league on Mondays in May. Our team had three members so we were in need of another bowler. We were all going to be gone the first week of bowling and had requested that we post bowl after our return.

Okay,
you asked to post bowl for the 1st night and it was granted, Also you needed a 4 bowler and they found one for you afterwards.

that's okay there.

The secretary had "forgotten" we wouldn't be there, so when our fourth member showed up on beginning night, she let him bowl with their team.

Okay, now we get into a possible problem area.

IMO. There were two options Your fourth man should of had that first night.

1. Was to bowl on your teams scheduled lanes against the other team. For his scores to be added for your teams post bowling scores, to figure the first nights win and loss's. (Which is what he should have done IMO)

2. Or He could wait and post bowl with you when you post bowled for that first night.


The bowling on the sec.'s team is a problem area.

1. if he bowled as a regular member of the sec. team, then there would need to be a capt. meeting to transfer him to your the next week. and the scores bowled on the sec. team that night wouldn't count toward your teams post bowl.

2. If he just subbed on the sec.team as a roaming sub. you still can't use his scores from that night.

3. He couldn't post bowl with you either for that first night since he already bowled for that night on another team.

The next Monday, we bowled (Secretary was absent) during league bowling - the four of us. Three of us established new averages, and the fourth already had an average from bowling the week prior.

that part is okay

On Thursday, the three of us post-bowled for the first week of bowling. I didn't think the fourth bowler was eligible since he had already bowled with her team for the first week.

correct.

We, or I "assumed" that our averages/handicaps for the post bowl would be based on the week we had just bowled on Monday and a vacancy due to no fourth bowler the first week, and if so, we would have won 4 points.

That's how I believe it should be done.

Come Monday, the league sheet shows that we haven't won but 2 points. I asked the secretary to give me the calculations for how she figured all the games, but I have not received anything as of yet.

Until you get the info here, we can't really judge one way or the other.

I believe the rules state that the team has to bowl together, no individual pre- or post-bowling.

That's right, but your fourth man bowled on the scheduled night with the league that's not considered pre or post bowling.

As I said above he could have bowled for your team on your teams scheduled lanes against the other team. For his scores to be added for your teams post bowling scores, to figure the first nights win and loss's.(Which is what he should have done IMO)

Wouldn't our fourth member be their member for the first week and then transfer to us for the following week, with us having a vacancy on the first week?

If he bowled as a roaming sub. on the sec. team you wouldn't need to do a transfer as he wouldn't be a regular member of the sec.'s team.

Also, wouldn't the averages be calculated as "current" - meaning at the time they were bowled?

Correct since you had bowled the "2nd" week already, you would use those averages for the handicap of the post bowled games. (Depending on any league specific rules that might apply)

What is the proper way to score the games for the first and second week of bowling - who is on what team, and what average is used?

Thanks for all the insight!

depending on out come after you get more info from the sec. you still might email the usbc rule dept and check.

[bowl1820]

#1. All post bowling has to be complete before the league bowls for the next week so your scores wouldn't have counted as they were bowled after the next week.

This is covered under USBC 111f. Time Limit for Bowling
Unless the league has set a time limit in it's league rules. you have until the end of the season to post bowl.
111f. Time Limit for Bowling
Pre-bowled/postponed games must be bowled as follows:
1. Prior to the date of scheduled competition for final team standings for the season or each segment
of a split season; or
2. Within seven days when the postponement is granted for the last day of a segment (split season leagues); or

3. Within seven days when the postponement is granted for the last day of the schedule.
The foregoing applies to teams bowling in direct opposition. A league may adopt different time frames
for individual and/or team unopposed bowling.

#2. Post bowling is only allowed as a team you had a member of your team who bowled during the league as such post bowling was no longer an option his scores would count with the other three members of the team getting a blind.

As I said in my post above I believe these are the two options the sec. should have gave the fourth bowler that night.

1. Was to bowl on your teams scheduled lanes against the other team. For his scores to be added to your teams post bowling scores, to figure the first nights win and loss's.

2. Or He could wait and post bowl with you when you post bowled for that first night.

#3. Did they include the 4th member into their team scores or as I mentioned in #2 which is the way I believe it should have been scored

#4. Your averages would have been set from your week 2 scores as your post bowling is ineligible

correct

I don't know if this is correct for sure but I believe this would be how it would have been handled in my leagues

[Amyers]

This is covered under USBC 111f. Time Limit for Bowling
Unless the league has set a time limit in it's league rules. you have until the end of the season to post bowl.
111f. Time Limit for Bowling
Pre-bowled/postponed games must be bowled as follows:
1. Prior to the date of scheduled competition for final team standings for the season or each segment
of a split season; or
2. Within seven days when the postponement is granted for the last day of a segment (split season leagues); or

3. Within seven days when the postponement is granted for the last day of the schedule.
The foregoing applies to teams bowling in direct opposition. A league may adopt different time frames
for individual and/or team unopposed bowling.




As I said in my post above I believe these are the two options the sec. should have gave the fourth bowler that night.

1. Was to bowl on your teams scheduled lanes against the other team. For his scores to be added to your teams post bowling scores, to figure the first nights win and loss's.

2. Or He could wait and post bowl with you when you post bowled for that first night.






correct

Sounds like I was pretty close both of my leagues have a league rule about the time limit for post bowling.

Always good to have the exacts

[classygranny]

We have two weeks to post-bowl. That's why we did it on Thursday - within the two week period.

Is there a USBC rule in regard to using the averages "as they happen" rather than applying them to the week of bowling?

[bowl1820]

We have two weeks to post-bowl. That's why we did it on Thursday - within the two week period.

Your okay there then.

Is there a USBC rule in regard to using the averages "as they happen" rather than applying them to the week of bowling?

In regards to the above situation, the usbc rule would be:

Rule 111 – Pre-bowl/Postponements
111e. Procedure
Following is the procedure to be used for pre-bowling or postponements:
4. Handicap is figured as of the date/time the games are bowled. All games bowled prior to the prebowled
or postponed match shall be included in determining handicap.

That means the averages you had set on the 2nd night of bowling, are what you use to figure handicap for your post bowled games. (depending on your league rules regarding entering averages)


FYI: If you go to bowl.com download the pdf of the rules, that way you don't have to bother navigating the site reading the rules

in fact heres the direct link:

USBC 2013-2014 Playing Rules
http://usbcongress.http.internapcdn....14Rulebook.pdf

just right click and "save link as"

[classygranny]

Thanks Bowl! That download worked really fast, so I saved it. When I go to bowl.com to download it, it takes forever and sometimes never downloads, and if it does, it never lets me save the pdf.

I will attempt to find my own answers in the future, but if I were you - I wouldn't hold my breath. You are such an extreme wealth of knowledge and explain things so very well, that some of us (ME) rely on that instead of using our own brainpower. Thanks again!