I have have seen him do it on xtra frame.Originally Posted by RobLV1
Haha..... Don't tell Aslan that, Rob.... His worldview will collapse
Company League Average: 198.1
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Current Arsenal: Roto Grip Nomad Pearl, Wrecker, and Hyper Cell; Track 920A and 505A; Storm Tropical Breeze; Plastic Spare Ball
I have have seen him do it on xtra frame.
I fear that bowling is a lot like Nascar. It was a different sport when the old guys were jacking up their '52 Plymouths and running around a dirt track straight out of their barns. But the old guys can't compete in today's Nascar. It's a different sport, with different tracks, different equipment, and a different approach.
Already knew that. WRW talked about it briefly in an interview. Rumor has it Belmonte has also bowled 1-handed. And also, I bowled thumbless 2 games last week (practice). Just thought I'd add to the random thoughts that in the big picture mean nothing.Haha..... Don't tell Aslan that, Rob.... His worldview will collapse
I've forwarded your concerns to the USBC to strip him (WRW) of his 2014 Senior Masters title he won last month. I've also emailed Walter Ray to inform him he should retire, perhaps go sit in a 52' Plymouth in a field somewhere. No response just yet.
The point was, Dear Aslan, that WRW isn't an "old guy." People like Earl Anthony, Don Carter, Johnny Petraglia, etc. are the "old guys." Richard Petty's no spring chicken, but he's definitely not driving his '52 Plymouth in races.
While I'm not disparaging these guys at all -- Heck, Anthony's still the best of the best -- I just don't think they played the same game that's being played today. Could Don Carter compete with today's equipment? I don't know? Would he even want to? I don't know.
The game has changed and is continuing to change. Players like WRW, PDW, and Duke are able to keep winning, because they have adapted to the new game successfully. I suspect there will always be players like that as long as pro bowling continues.
I think you need to watch the USBC Senior Masters. Were there some guys there with more modern swings...sure. PDW and Montacelli. And they both did very well. But Walter Ray still throws the way he did 20 years ago. I've watched a ton of video on him and while I'm sure he's tweaked things here and there...he hasn't changed much.
Also, if you listen to him or you listen to other experts comment on him...or if you read the many articles on the changing game of bowling and how it's affected players...the overwhelming consensus is:
1) WRW says he plays a straighter shot. He says he "can" play a higher rev game BUT it decreases his accuracy and he feels he's most competitive with his shot the way it is.
2) People that comment on WRW echo that. He is "capable" of doing anything on the lanes...even bowl 2-handed...but why would he? He has 47 titles and leads the PBA in money earnings.
3) WRW DID move to the PBA50 seniors tour...but thats as much "age" related as it is "the game has passed him by". He admits it's getting harder to compete against the young, power players...but PDW still plays against the young guys (and beats them) and WRW has easily handled PDW head to head.
4) The changing game hasn't HURT guys like PDW and Bohn and WRW. The consensus opinion is the changing equipment has actually HELPED those players stay competitive because the equipment is giving them more help without forcing them to become "power" players.
The best case study for this is Mark Roth.
Before there was a Belmonte, many years before, there was a "Mark Roth". And the general opinion by everyone at that time, including his peers...was that Roth was the "best" and most capable of beating anyone on any given day. Like Belmonte, he was getting much more power and angle than his fellow competitors and was doing it accurately.
Now, Roth ended up having health issues related to his style (as Belmonte has). He had thumb issues, elbow issues, wrist issues...but ultimately...what hurt Roth the most was reactive resin technology. Suddenly his more accuracte, straighter competitors were getting more hook, more angle, and more power...without trying to change their game to match Mark Roth. Suddenly, Mark lost his advantage. He was still a formidable opponent for many, many years...and one of the greatest bowlers of all time...but had reactive resin never shown up...the general opinion is he'd have stayed relatively healthy (after making adjustments to his grip to help his thumb problems) and would probably have surpassed Earl Anthony at some point in titles.
Like your Nascar example...Petty showed up with a car that was so dominant, Nascar changed the rules to help competition. Once all the other good drivers had similar cars...Petty was still great, but not as dominant as he was before. You can give a bad driver a faster car and that driver will suddenly be more competitive...but if you give a faster car to a driver that is already great...then that great driver is almost unbeatable....until everyone else has the same car...then it's more of a wash. Thats why so many people get suspicious in Nascar when a guy like Jeff Gordon starts winning race after race after race. Suddenly everyone assumes he "must" be cheating. Because Nascar is designed for it to be very even technologically speaking...and usually a driver can't consistently "out drive" or "out pit" his opponents EVERY time...so if someone is winning "too much"...he's probably found an edge and Nascar needs to step in.
WRW is like Mario Andretti. He's still the best...and if you give him a faster car...he's just going to be that much better. And my main point in the discussion is...WRW isn't Carmen Salvino or Mike Limongello...he's not some retired guy running a pro shop somewhere that can't compete. WRW is STILL winning...he beat Bohn, Montacelli, PDW, and many other big names and took 1st place at that Masters LAST MONTH! And I can almost GUARANTEE that the young guns in the PBA right now, even Rash and Belmonte, would MUCH prefer WRW stay in the PBA50 so they don't have to face him in the stepladder finals anymore. Because he's not "done". He's not put out to pasture.
And this isn't a new issue...when Roth debuted...everyone claimed that the age of the stroker was over and if you didn't become a "cranker", like Roth, you might as well quit bowling. That mindset ended a lot of bowling careers as old timers blew out their backs, knees, shoulders, elbows, and wrists. And then came resin...and then the crankers started whining that it wasn't "fair" and it was ruining the game...because now any beginner bowler could walk out and make a ball hook 6-12 boards with relatively little effort. Now we have Roth Part 2...Jason Belmonte. And many people are saying that the whole bowling world will convert to 2-handed...and if ya don't, you'll get left behind. And I fear, this will lead to the same result as Roth Part I. A LOT of back problems...and ultimately equipment will advance to the point that 2-handed isn't as necessary.
Thats my take.
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I also want to add...the reason many people still say "straighter is greater" is NOT just some stubbornness not to change. I've thrown thumbless...I've thrown high rev like a cranker....it's fun! I can see the "draw" of that style for casual bowlers.
BUT...bowling straight, with all it's negatives (power, angle, room for error) has advantages that most people don't consider:
Case Study: MWhite vs. Aslan
Match #1: 1st Annual BHMSCInv Tournament
Aslan WINS! Why?
- it was handicap...so, thats part of it. Mike actually won scratch.
- BUT...if you look at what happened in that tournament, and you filter out all the "excuses" and "opinions"...it was very easy to see that the lane conditions were wreaking havoc on both ZDawg and MWhite. ZDawg's low speed, higher rev style meant that as soon as the ball hit the dry area in front of the pin deck...his ball acted erratically. Mike also had problems figuring out how to get his ball into the pocket...with his higher speed but very high rev shot.
In both cases, these guys arguably had the better, more modern releases. Mike White actually has a very nice release if you ever get a chance to see him bowl. For a guy with past injuries, he makes getting monster revs almost seem effortless....and he's quite consistent and accurate. So why did they lose?
My opinion/analysis:
Because I used less revs, a straighter shot, and lesser equipment. That SEEMS backwards...but at the end of the day...the erratic lane conditions had LESS of an effect on me than it did on them. I was able to squeak out a victory (ZDawg had a shot in the 10th in game 3 of beating me) because the conditions didn't help me...but they didn't hurt me.
Match #2: Aslan vs. MWhite Wood Lanes Challenge
AGAIN...Mike, better bowler, very nice, modern release...lots of speed and lots of revs.
And he learned his lesson from match #1...his higher speed would "help" him on wood lanes...AND...he used plastic/urethane to limit the negative effects of the wood lanes. AND...this would be SCRATCH.
So what happened? Believe it or not...even with a plastic ball...that dang ball would NOT stay right of the headpin!! Mike's revs were SO effective...that he couldn't even keep a plastic ball right of the headpin!! So how did I accomplish the unthinkable?? How did I beat a bowler with 35 years of experience and a 200+ average (scratch)?? I'm NOT a better bowler. I'm Not!! Well,
1) They were my home lanes. I've bowled 100s of games on those lanes and even that night had bowled several games on one of the lanes of the pair...so I had home field advantage big time.
2) I play a straight game...the lanes don't affect my ball movement "as much" because I don't play a high rev game.
Point? The modern release gives you a great little advantage when lane conditions are ideal and match your game. But changes in lane conditions...poor maintenance of lanes...dirty lanes...dry lanes...neglected lanes...heavily oiled lanes...lanes with a sport pattern...lanes with spots where cosmic bowlers fell on them...whatever the condition...has an exponentially higher effect (positive or negative...but usually negative) on a high rev rate (modern release).
Listen...I agree with Mike...the better you get, the more lane conditions impact your game. I've had absolutely miserable times bowling at certain places where the oil is just so heavy and I don't have an answer for it. And it forces me to bowl so straight that I literally have < 2 boards one way or the other to hit the pocket. I "get it". I'm just saying the biggest advantages of "straight" are in spare shooting and when lane conditions aren't ideal/predictable.
Obviously...developing a better (more modern) release is on my "to-do" list...because had I played MWhite (or even ZDawg) in Vegas (heavy oil, consistent pattern)...I'd have probably lost. Mike would have a huge advantage with his Mastermind and consistent, high rev shot. He might have to slightly adjust speed or angle...but after 5-10 frames I think he'd be putting up 200+ games. And ZDawg, with higher revs and lower speed...also would likely have some success. His shot is less refined as Mike's...so I think Mike would have a definite edge...but I think ZDawg beats me. So I'm not "poo pooing" the modern release...I'm just saying it's not the holy grail everyone makes it out to be. My opinion.
Oh, I agree with all of this, Aslan. But I think we're looking at two sides of the same coin. both sides "spend" equally. But Earl Anthony and Mark Roth (and I was into the game seriously when Mark appeared and got hot, so I know about M.R.) both knew that in order to stay competitive, they had to change their game. The point where I disagree with you is that WRW has changed his game, or he wouldn't have stayed competitive. Did he become a clone of someone else? No, but his game has changed to adapt his unique style to changing conditions.
I think there will always be crankers and strokers and two-handed and thumbless, and all other sorts of nonsense in the game. I think every smart player will find a way to get the ball hard into the pocket with a decent entry angle. I think some people will continue to adjust their delivery to changing lane conditions, while others will end up bringing 15 balls to every game in order to adjust their equipment to changing lane conditions -- and some will be a mix of the two. I don't think a stroker straight ball is archaic -- but it is different than it was in the 1960s, just as cranking is now different than it was in Roth's heyday.
I appreciate your comments. You love the game. You're opinionated. I'd love to bowl with you sometime. Keep up the good work.
Aslan all of this has more to do with knowing your conditions than bowling style. There will always be conditions out there on the extremes that can give you a huge advantage if you understand them. If you want to be the next WRW great good luck and I'm not telling you to change you can be good with your current style just not sure that it can be great. I think the modern release is overblown although it does look nice. Anything that is repeatable that gives you the power and revs to be where you want to be works.
Would you believe I know an alley where my 11 year old who averages about 110 could beat me? On a regular basis? It's in Kentucky went there on a trip decided to bowl a few games. The heads were so burnt that my euphoria before I changed the surface started hooking almost as soon as it hit the lane. The approaches were so sticky I couldn't even slide my foot on them I threw a 70 and quit after my third fall. There are always conditions that get you if I ever went back plastic ball and slicker soles for my shoes maybe I could do better.
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Would you believe I know an alley where my 11 year old who averages about 110 could beat me? On a regular basis? It's in Kentucky went there on a trip decided to bowl a few games. The heads were so burnt that my euphoria before I changed the surface started hooking almost as soon as it hit the lane.
Amyers, I believe you on that kentucky house. Probably the best bowling i have done in my life league wise was in a 12 lane house in kentucky i bowled league in during mid to late 80's. I had a composite for those years of 212 and had to play 3-4 arrow with either a polished udot or yellow dot. I wish i threw it that well now.
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