...but you don't hold strong opinions, or anything.Originally Posted by MICHAEL
Sorry -- couldn't resist. I like a man who stands by his principles.
I stood by my principal once. I got detention...
In my league that is 100% handicap, I think the higher average bowlers believe they have a better opportunity of bowling more over their averages than the lower average bowlers. Some days, this just doesn't ring true though. I think it all comes out to who bowls the best at the most opportune time. Which is true in most sports, who is the best on their game at that time. We have had the lowest team average in first and we have seen the highest average team in first.
Congrats! I'm taking a 150ish average bowler to the Vegas Senior No-Tap Tourney this month as my partner. He gets great count on his first ball, he just hasn't mastered his spares as of yet, especially the 10-pin. Anything can happen in no-tap, thus the name.People accused me of being a sandbagger in my summer league last week. I have and never will sandbag. I'm still learning how to bowl! I just started a few months ago! So I have a 120 game sandwiched in between 180 games, and I'm a sandbagger. Nope, I just managed to get the 10 pin out in the 180 games
I bowled a no-tap event last night and had a 300 game, and you would've thought I bowled a 900 no tap series. "You're a 148 average bowler! You shouldn't be bowling this good! You're sandbagging!"
Makes me very angry.
And, just for the record. I am NOT, have NEVER been, and WILL NEVER BE a sandbagger. I would find it very difficult not to bowl each ball to the best of my ability, so I would not even know how to sandbag. Nor would I be able to sleep with myself at night, knowing I had cheated myself in that way. Also, would never allow one on my team, either.
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High Series - 704; High Game - 290 (a long time ago) Current Average - 150
...but you don't hold strong opinions, or anything.
Sorry -- couldn't resist. I like a man who stands by his principles.
I stood by my principal once. I got detention...
Except for the little fact that you also bowl in handicap leagues...which you left out. And your refusal to bowl in sport leagues, tournaments (even the beloved VBT!), etc... But yeah, other than that...you're a glaring statue of hope and dignity. (makes Archie Bunker fart noise with hand)
Listen handicap haters...I'll say what I said when MWhite was complaining about handicap...and this actually DOESN'T apply as much to Iceman....but what good scratch bowlers tend to forget...is they have 25-35 YEARS of experience. Bowling doesn't have divisions (although it should). It doesn't have minor leagues and major leagues. It doesn't have tiered farm systems. One minute you're cosmic bowling and the next minute you're a sanctioned league bowler.
So it's always nice to hear from 25-year veterans saying giving a player handicap is cheating...and despite my IMMEDIATE arguement that nobody has a gun to your head MAKING you avoid scratch leagues...my SECOND response is...feel free to bowl against these beginners using ONLY the knowledge and skill you had 24 years ago...since that would technically be fair. Mike didn't just give me and ZDawg handicap pins because he was the better bowler....he gave us handicap pins to even out (or attempt to even out) the 30 years experience difference. In a perfect world (as I layed out earlier)...a 195 average bowler would never have the opportunity to bowl against beginners in a handicap league. But with the sport in decline, as ftlob mentioned, we just don't have the luxury of "divisions" and thus must have handicap leagues.
As to cheating/sandbagging...like I said...what did you really win? You're a great bowler now cuz you have a trophy you had to cheat to get? And unfortunately, it's like a cancer. As the OP mentioned...once one team does it and gets rewarded, then another team feels slighted and decides to "one up" them the next season. Pretty soon everyone is doing it because it's just considered to be "part of the game".
I saw this in paintball. In paintball, cheaters will "wipe" which means they will get hit, duck down, wipe of the paint, then continue firing. It got so bad, that players were claiming it was "part of the game". In other words, everyone is doing it, so it's now a "skill". And it put fields in a bad spot because they wanted to crack down on it, but like bowling, they don't make enough money to start banning players from the field. At the same time, "wiping" was leading to some players not playing anymore and other players to actually physically fight with each other.
Did I ever wipe? Never. Not intentionally. Never. Did I ever "cheat". Well...there were probably a couple times I had a "suspicion" that my gun was firing hot (exceeding the fps limit) and I didn't have it retested immediately. But other than that, I only ever "intentionally cheated" once and that was when I had a new gun/marker and was experiementing with the firing modes. I knew I wasn't "allowed" to use the multi-fire mode (fires more than once with one pull of the trigger)...but I did anyways because it was new and I just wanted to play with it. And...I didn't have it turned all the way up. AND...I got caught...so the ref changed the mode back to the legal mode and I left it there. Figures. I cheat once and get caught.
But i just never really understood people that routinely cheat to win. I don't have a lot of trophys on my mantle...but of the ones I have...I can feel proud that I actually earned them. I can't imagine having a trophy on the shelf that I know I had to cheat to get. I wouldn't even want to look at it.
We have some at our Thursday night league. Hubby called them out last year when we bowled our first league. They're still doing it. They get drunk and switch bowling hands the first night. Then, if they have to bowl a good team during the league they don't show and make-up bowl where they get the lanes all to themselves and know what score they have to beat. They've showed up for less than half the league this season but are in first place. Again. They've won the hokey trophy like six times in row. What a bunch of a-ho's.
We've brought it up but AMF doesn't do diddly. (The sneak booze in water bottles too BTW.) One girl said something to one of the sandbaggers about switching hands and her told her that he could do whatever the hell he wanted. What a total douche bag! I called the same guy out and now if he sees me watching him bowl he misses (and not on purpose.) Serves him right!
I saw we were bowling them a couple of weeks ago and asked my teammates if we could pre-bowl or make-up bowl but the guy on my team was all gung-ho to bowl that night. I told them that I couldn't bowl that night but they went anyway. A few days later the other girl on my team said that it was total BS the sandbaggers had the same handicap as us. She had a horrible time. The sandbaggers kept asking her why she wasn't having a good time. I tried to warn ya. I will never bowl there in a league again.
I can't do it. I'm not really good enough yet to take it down a notch. I thought about easing up a bit the second game last week on PBAE because we're trying to establish our averages and USBC adds around 20-23 pins to sport for my regular average at my level. That's all I had to do was think about it for a split second. I bowled crappy that game and hated it. I wasn't trying to bowl crappy, it just happened. Then I bowled a 223 to make up for it (172 average.) I bowled a 166 average on Shark this week so it all evens out. I'm not a 195 average bowler. Like I said I'm not good enough to roll crappy games on purpose. It just happens naturally!!
Last edited by Bunny; 07-02-2014 at 01:09 PM.
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14's Deadly Aim, First Blood, HyRoad Pearl, Tropical Breeze, Rising Star, Maxim Spare
Perfect for no-tap! It's the folks that can hit the pocket most of the time but have trouble picking up their spares that do well at no-tap.
Good luck and good bowling! Have fun!!
Last edited by Bunny; 07-02-2014 at 01:10 PM.
Proud Member of BowlingBoards.com Bowling Forums
14's Deadly Aim, First Blood, HyRoad Pearl, Tropical Breeze, Rising Star, Maxim Spare
Thats a non-sanctioned league though right?
See, thats the other reason I only do sanctioned leagues. It seems like the non-sanctioned leagues and no-tap leagues there are a lot of people that ate there just to have fun and they really don't care. In a sanctioned league...if those people acted like that, they WOULD likely be gone. I'm not saying sanctioned leagues are super serious or anything...but people have a good deal of money invested in sanctioned leagues and there are presidents, secretarys, etc...
As for the "booze" thing...just so ya know...at Concourse it's a ONE strike policy on outside liquor. Lots of alleys get really "picky" about that because technically they could lose their liquor liscence over that kinda garbage. So they may not care if a team is cheating...but sneaking liquor in...THAT they will care about.
Case in point: Last week in the Friday league I was subbing in...
One of the approaches was sticky, so the alley fixed it...but then it was too slippery. So one team said they felt it was unsafe to bowl on and that team just up and left. Well, in the middle of game 2...all the team captains had to meet and vote on how to handle that because the team that stayed wanted to continue bowling. So they had to discuss options and then have a vote. Personally, I blame the center for not having another set of lanes available. Many houses will leave an empty pair in between league and open bowlers...and that will serve as a back-up should problems arise. But, since this center is greedy and doesn't want to leave a set of lanes open during league play...they end up with this problem (not to mention the annoyance when you get stuck next to cosmic bowlers during league play).
But thats just an illustration...sanctioned leagues tend to not just "let things go"...and if people are bowling with an alternate hand or clearly sandbagging...teams aren't shy about making a big issue out of it.
In Bag: (: .) Zen Master Solid; (: .) Perfect Mindset; (: .) Brunswick Endeavor; (: .) Outer Limits Pearl; (: .) Ebonite Maxim
USBC#: 8259-59071; USBC Sanctioned Average = 192; Lifetime Average = 172;
Ball Speed: 14.7mph; Rev. Rate: 240rpm || High Game (sanc.) = 300 (268); High Series (sanc.) = 725 (720); Clean Games: 198
Smokey this is not 'Nam', this is bowling. There are rules. Proud two-time winner of a bowlingboards.com weekly ball give-away!
Aslan, Just for you INFORMATION!!
Scratch leagues are VERY HARD TO FIND! Handicap leagues amount to 95 percent of all bowing around the Kansas city area. Then if you do find one, does it work with the days you CAN BOWL??
Sure no one makes a person bowl kiddy bowling, where you get pins just because you not that good! MAN UP!! Woman UP,,, eliminate all this Sand bagging B.S., ONCE AND for ALL! Its all over Kansas city spreading like locust!!! It's not unlike a Biblical plague!!
Is it that important to beat a BETTER BOWLER, by getting Godzilla amounts of pins, even if YOUR NOT A SAND BAGGER!
Did you really beat that Gifted bowler,,,,, NO!
What satisfaction is there in beating someone that really didn't HAVE A LEVEL playing Field!
HEY I am no Gifted bowler, with a 220 up average, but I do beat them on given days, and it FEELS GOOD! IT''S CALLED REALITY!!
REALITY is a good thing! This leveling the playing field is for people with NO PRIDE.
Does Iceman like to Win,,,, YES ,,,, but only if I really Win!!
Does losing to a better bowler upset me? Hell NO! I just work that much harder to get them next time,,, I don't whine about it not being FAIR@#$#@!
DEMAND that your Bowing Alleys Have MORE SCRATCH LEAGUES! Tell them that your an American, and you don't want the easy make believe handicap bowling....
Tell them your not Handicapped, and that you don't have a handicap plate on your car!!
Handicap bowling should be for the handicapped!!!!! NOT for bowlers without!!
ONLY SURE way to eliminate this abomination!!! TAKE IT AWAY! Amen! ice
HWJB ,,,,, How would Jesus Bowl!
I think I know the answer to that!!
SCRATCH!!
Last edited by MICHAEL; 07-02-2014 at 07:39 PM.
Don't walk on Thin Ice!
@Bunny: Somone correct me if I'm wrong in this situation, but in a sanctioned league I'm pretty sure that switching hands required a league vote and for the bowler to re-sanction. If you encounter this situation again, maybe you should let the guy throw one or two shots, pull out the rulebook, and then have the threat of having to repay the sanction fee loom over their head.
You're right. It's Non-Sanctioned. Never again!!
See above.
That's the only reason they get away with it.
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14's Deadly Aim, First Blood, HyRoad Pearl, Tropical Breeze, Rising Star, Maxim Spare
They don't have too re-Sanction, they have to establish a new average with the new hand.
118b. How Established
Each league shall adopt a rule to determine the number of games required to establish an average in
that league. The following applies when establishing an average:
1. A right-handed bowler must always bowl right-handed. Similarly, a left-handed bowler must always
bowl left-handed.
Penalty: Forfeiture of game.
118e. Establish New Average due to Change in Delivery
If because of injury or disability a bowler finds it necessary to change delivery from right- to lefthanded
or vice-versa, the league board of directors, by majority vote, may permit the bowler to change
delivery. If approval is obtained, the bowler must establish a new average.
Commonly Asked Questions – Rule 118b.
118b/1 If a bowler uses his/her opposite hand to make a delivery during a game, what
happens?
If an individual does not have permission from the league board of directors, a league officer
or the league board would then have the following options within the timelines as stated in
Rule 119.
Option 1: Declare the individual’s game forfeited: The bowler would receive zero for the
game. (Note: Scores bowled by the other team members not in violation stand as
bowled.)
Option 2: Declare the team’s game forfeited: The team would receive zero for the game.
(Note: The individual in violation would receive zero. However, scores bowled by
the other team members count toward their individual averages and league awards
unless the league rules state otherwise.)
Right handed Stroker, high track ,about 13 degree axis tilt. PAP is located 5 9/16” over 1 3/4” up.Speed ave. about 14 mph at the pins. Medium rev’s.High Game 300, High series 798
"Talent without training is nothing." Luke Skywalker
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