If knowledge is power, why........

[MICHAEL]

Lol. He started bowling in high school, and is now 60 years old.....So he's been bowling for over 40 years. How long has he been playing 3-4 leagues every week.....I'm guessing for quite some time (maybe even more when he was younger?). So he's been playing on average 3-4 times a week for over 40 years, but "never practices". Well....that must be some gift!

http://www.bowl.com/findamember/



Go to bowling awards.com and check this Beast out! Patrick Henderson ID: 1334-995,,,, then you will know why around here we just call him:

THE BEAST

ON HOUSE OIL, I would put him up against any Pro Bowler,,, at even odds! He not only has the GIFT, but KNOWLDEGE to go with it!

He offered to give me lesions! I think I might just take him up on that offer! I like his style,,, its a lot like Norm Duke, or Walter Ray.

[Hampe]

Hmm....not quite sure you understood my point. He's been playing 4 times a week for over 40 years......in what way does that imply he has some kind of natural gift? If I could play in 4 leagues a week, I wouldn't have to practice either! I wouldn't have time to .

Im not doubting he's talented, that's obvious (the number is 1335-995 btw), he's probably better than I'll ever be (although if I were still single, I probably wouldn't feel that way ). I still wouldn't take him vs. a pro on house oil though. Any pattern Pat can avg 230-240 one of the top pro's will average 260. But he would definitely at least have a chance, that's for sure......more than I'd say for most of us here (but not because he has some natural gift that we don't have....it's because he's already bowled more in his lifetime than most of us ever will).

[MICHAEL]

Hmm....not quite sure you understood my point. He's been playing 4 times a week for over 40 years......in what way does that imply he has some kind of natural gift? If I could play in 4 leagues a week, I wouldn't have to practice either! I wouldn't have time to .

Im not doubting he's talented, that's obvious (the number is 1335-995 btw), he's probably better than I'll ever be (although if I were still single, I probably wouldn't feel that way ). I still wouldn't take him vs. a pro on house oil though. Any pattern Pat can avg 230-240 one of the top pro's will average 260. But he would definitely at least have a chance, that's for sure......more than I'd say for most of us here (but not because he has some natural gift that we don't have....it's because he's already bowled more in his lifetime than most of us ever will).

grrrrrrrrr..... why,,, WHY is it so hard in BOWLING TO ADMIT that many good bowlers are GIFTED! LIKE everything else in life? You don't get great scores like Pat Henderson, unless your GIFTED! I will go to my grave, standing by this TRUTH!! LOL

Is practice good,,, YES,,, but it will only get YOU to the level your capable of! I firmly believe we all have capacities and limits!

Is Coaching good,,, YES,,, but it better be a GOOD COACH, and you better be coachable!

I don't want to hear (if I wasn't married,,, LOL,,, excuses), prove me wrong along with Aslan! I have seen you bowl and you do seems to have a great delivery? Mechanics look good,,,, maybe your average is where YOUR GIFT allows you to be??

Don't get upset,,,, PROVE ME WRONG! ( I hope you and Aslan do prove to me that coaching and lots of practice can get you to that 220 or higher level.

[rv driver]

I don't KNOW rv driver..... music doesn't chance while your playing it, like bowling! The Gift part of Bowling is, balance, Focus, the kinesiology of bone, muscle, nerve, reflex. degree of coordination, ,,,, so many things go into the gift, that are either THERE, or NOT? MOST people that I have talked to, have stayed around the same average for YEARS! Up a little, Down a little. Some tried coaching, which helped, but not a lot. Some said they practiced many games a week, just to give it a try,,, but only marginal improvement.

AGAIN, if HOUSE OIL is sooooooooo easy, (key word I keep hearing EASY) Then why don't several knowledgeable people on this website have that simple goal! I don't want to hear they don't practice enough.... LOL...how much would that be 100 games a week?

I swear to what ever god you believe in, its A GIFT,,,,, A HUGE GIFT,,,,, and many I know that do bowl that 220 or higher level, it Just Comes Easy!

THANKS RV DIRVER,,,, for that back up!! I knew Science Would Back me.....

Playing an instrument is the same -- except that we're dealing with fine motor skills rather than more gross motor skills. Music is just as "chancy" because it just. keeps. going. No stops. The framework is very, very fluid. Bowling's a little different in that regard, but just as chancy in its own way. But I'll grant you that some people have a natural gift that others just don't have.

[rv driver]

[/COLOR]

grrrrrrrrr..... why,,, WHY is it so hard in BOWLING TO ADMIT that many good bowlers are GIFTED! LIKE everything else in life? You don't get great scores like Pat Henderson, unless your GIFTED! I will go to my grave, standing by this TRUTH!! LOL

Is practice good,,, YES,,, but it will only get YOU to the level your capable of! I firmly believe we all have capacities and limits!

Is Coaching good,,, YES,,, but it better be a GOOD COACH, and you better be coachable!

I don't want to hear (if I wasn't married,,, LOL,,, excuses), prove me wrong along with Aslan! I have seen you bowl and you do seems to have a great delivery? Mechanics look good,,,, maybe your average is where YOUR GIFT allows you to be??

Don't get upset,,,, PROVE ME WRONG! ( I hope you and Aslan do prove to me that coaching and lots of practice can get you to that 220 or higher level.

I think we're conflating two issues here, Iceman. One issue deals with natural ability. No one's denying that some (perhaps many) bowlers have that ability. The other issue deals with the place of knowledge and practice in the arena of improvement. These are two separate issues. Neither of them depend upon a rather arbitrary quantification (220+).

Even great bowlers, though need to develop their gift in order to reach their potential. WRW may be gifted. But he wouldn't be on top of the bowling world without having developed that gift. You see, this "220+" is a glass ceiling of sorts. When I was bowling seriously back in the day, a person had to reach and maintain a sanctioned 210 average to be considered for the PBA. Why is the "number" now 220+? Because the game has changed. One day, most people, due to equipment, may be able to attain that number. so, "220" doesn't really mean anything.

Mozart wrote his first opera at age 11. Mozart was highly gifted. But he didn't just "write an opera." He was trained, or coached, from a very early age. he wrote his first concerto at age 5. he couldn't have done that without musical training -- regardless of how gifted he was. Mozart was also highly prolific for someone who only lived 35 years. He wrote over 600 works during that short span. Think how many he may have composed had he had access to composition software, virtual musicians, etc.?

Sure, someone who attains a 220 average is gifted. But that's not really the issue. The issue is, if the person is gifted and develops that gift, the average should be higher than that.

[Doghouse Reilly]

Okay, there's been a couple of threads now belaboring the "Gift", Talent vs Skill, Is greatness born or made argument. (an this one has ran on too long IMO.)

What's the point?

If everyone here said "I agree! You need the gift to be great " What then?

Are you or we to use saying we don't have the "Gift" as a way to make are ourselves feel better or as a excuse, for not reaching some arbitrary level of greatness (ie: a 220 average, I guess that bowler with a 219 average is SOL.)?

Or as some excuse for why we don't need to try and improve?

Like with the "Fixed Mindset" mentioned earlier by bowl (where he talked about the persons thought process, not whether they were born with innate talents). worrying about whether you or someone else has the "gift" is ultimately going to be limiting.

[Aslan]

So I'm taking that as a "no" in regards to the USBC Senior Masters in 2015???

Dang. Seemed like a shoe in. : (

[rv driver]

So I'm taking that as a "no" in regards to the USBC Senior Masters in 2015???

Dang. Seemed like a shoe in. : (

The best-laid plans of mice and men...

[MICHAEL]

Okay, there's been a couple of threads now belaboring the "Gift", Talent vs Skill, Is greatness born or made argument. (an this one has ran on too long IMO.)

Gift, talent skill are all the same animal.

What's the point?

What's your POINT???


If everyone here said "I agree! You need the gift to be great " What then?


ICEMAN would be happy!! Feel good,,, almost have that GIFTED feeling!


Are you or we to use saying we don't have the "Gift" as a way to make are ourselves feel better or as a excuse, for not reaching some arbitrary level of greatness (ie: a 220 average, I guess that bowler with a 219 average is SOL.)?


NO,,, to your first question, it just a reality check. I have seen many try to make that 220 or above level, 219's are a dime a dozen! A 219, is like a 299 game, almost gifted but not!


Or as some excuse for why we don't need to try and improve?

NEVER GIVE up is my motto! I am not gifted, but that doesn't mean I don't live my life in pursuit of excellence!


Like with the "Fixed Mindset" mentioned earlier by bowl (where he talked about the persons thought process, not whether they were born with innate talents). worrying about whether you or someone else has the "gift" is ultimately going to be limiting.

You can think YOU CAN, on a lot of things in life, and still fail! I am not saying give up,,, Iceman don't have the gift. What I am saying is that there are MANY people I know that have that 220 average, that work at it that hard! Would they be even better with coaching, and practice?

I know a guy that I played golf with that was almost a scratch golfer. He had many bad habits, according to correct form and follow through.

Long Story SHORT,,, he went to the local pro took lesions, practiced, and his game went to heck!! OK,,, this might be and extreme example of Coaching and practice not improving ones game, but here is my opinion:

If its working, Don't get it fixed!

The 27 year old kid that almost Won on TV a few weeks ago collegiate All American bowled in tennis shoes, and put his thumb down to the first joint...
beat some of the best pros out there, and wound up second!!

I JUST WISH I HAD THAT FRICKEN GIFT.... OK,,,, I am DONE!! OVER,,,, FINISHED!!! (

Practice is a good thing, if done correctly

Coaching can be a good thing, IF YOU HAVE A GOOD coach!

[rv driver]

Would they be even better with coaching, and practice?

I maintain that they would be, depending if the coaching was sound and the practice worthwhile.