great read

[dnhoffman]

So I assume this kid would support my proposition that bowlers are put in leagues based on average?

- First year; < 130; no-tap.
- 130 to 174; handicap house league.
- 175 or more; scratch league.
- >190; scratch/sport league.

If your average drops, you move back down. This solves the problems. No more whining about handicap bowlers winning because of "all their handicap" because all the better bowlers are bowling scratch leagues. And in order to "sandbag" to get moved down…a person would have to sandbag an entire season…unlikely.

As to the tournament stuff…thats a tough one. I mean, on the one hand…I would prefer the ball manufacturers put the money into maybe increasing the PBA event payouts. On the other hand, I think it is a good idea to encourage handicap tournaments…which is what a lot of these tournaments are.

I'd actually like to see the USBC run more handicap tournaments…let the ball manufacturers kick in their money up to the PBA events and a little down to the USBC to encourage the handicap tournaments.

The problem with this is that you differentiate yourself right out of the majority of your customers - casual bowlers.

This system wouldn't allow most couples to bowl together, or new bowlers to bowl with friends who might otherwise recruit them onto their team.

I get what you're saying and all, but I don't see it really see how it creates equanimity more than the handicap system, and limits your customer base more than it helps it.

[Aslan]

No, I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying that some who don't want to be league bowlers, but who might just show up on a weekly basis and throw some games -- who might buy equipment and support the industry and watch the PBA -- might not do those things if they get turned off for simply not being in a league.

Non-League, casual bowlers don't generally DO those things. They tend to use house equipment or an old ball, they don't support the industry other than 30-40% of the bowling center income from casual bowlers, they arguably HURT the industry as more and more centers become convinced that bowling centers should be little night clubs, and they generally don't watch the PBA.

You're essentially making the case that we need to bend over backwards for casual bowlers that generally do not contribute to "sport bowling" other than providing supplemental income to the centers...but then saying those casual bowlers are important because they support the industry....yet list things that generally most LEAGUE bowlers do...not casual/cosmic bowlers.

If more people could meet professionals who treat them with respect, no matter their level of play, more people would be more likely to get into the sport, IMO.

The majority of folks here have treated you with respect, are you joining a league yet? If yes, Great! If no, I guess your arguement is off.

[Aslan]

The problem with this is that you differentiate yourself right out of the majority of your customers - casual bowlers.

This system wouldn't allow most couples to bowl together, or new bowlers to bowl with friends who might otherwise recruit them onto their team.

I get what you're saying and all, but I don't see it really see how it creates equanimity more than the handicap system, and limits your customer base more than it helps it.

Well, thats the trouble with the proposal. It forces players to bowl where they "should"...but in many cases...forcing them to do what they "should" is just gonna cause them to say "screw this" and leave. Thats how non-sanctioned leagues came into being...bowlers wanted to bowl shorter seasons, lower costs, not as much restrictions due to "rules"...so bamm...unsanctioned leagues.

I don't see my proposal ever really working...like you said, it creates a logistics problem with friends and relatives that want to bowl together but can't. And in sparsely populated areas, thats a BIG deal...because if you're driving 45 minutes through the mountains and snow to bowl in a league...you don't want to make that trip alone and twice as often.

[rv driver]

It's not just a league, any league. If you're not in THEIR special league the proshop rats can still look down on you. I've been to an alley (where I've had a couple balls drilled, their guy is really good) with that kind of mentality. It's definitely an inner circle thing and if you're not in their club you can just tell they're thinking "who is this guy does he even know what he's doing does he even know the owner by name?!"

That's the kind of situation that should probably be avoided and I think what RV is saying. For me it was nothing outright but you kinda feel a little uncomfortable when there's like 5 people all laughing in the shop about *whatever* and you're in there trying to do legitimate business and maybe get some advice.

I'm not really sure there's much of a solution to it, when you bowl a lot and know people that's... kinda where you hang out with them. I'm not really sure its a lack of respect per se, its just kind of a clique-y thing. People know other people in leagues and that's where it starts.

Ok. So I'm not crazy. To their credit, the center personnel are very nice and helpful, and go out of their way to treat everyone as if they have value. But some of the clientele sure make me want to go somewhere else. i won't do that, because I like the house pro, and I know and like the owner.

[bowl1820]

Thats how non-sanctioned leagues came into being...bowlers wanted to bowl shorter seasons, lower costs, not as much restrictions due to "rules"...so bamm...unsanctioned leagues.

In regard to leagues wanting shorter "schedules" and lower costs. sanctioned leagues can set the length to whatever they want. The USBC doesn't set the length.

Becoming unsanctioned only has a minor affect on costs, league fees like lineage, prize money, sponsor fee's are set by the league and the house.

So becoming unsanctioned has little bearing on those.

How is the length of the league schedule determined?
The length of the schedule and other commercial aspects of the game (such as price of
bowling, time, number of teams, etc.) are matters to be negotiated by the league and the
proprietor. Because a proprietor has specific rights as an independent business person,
USBC has no jurisdiction over these commercial aspects,


Most unsanctioned leagues , became unsanctioned do to a feeling that they weren't getting their moneys worth from the USBC like the changes to the awards and do to rule restrictions.

[Aslan]

I can only go by what I've seen in person and read on here...

And the leading arguements people had against joining "sanctioned leagues" was:
- cost
- length/duration

And I'll add based on the league Bunny and I did...I think there are some people that join non-sanctioned leagues because they know they can cheat and nobody really cares. And that seemed to be the case in that league.

Personally, and this is just my opinion, I think the length thing is silly (as Bowl1820 said, that can be changed for a sanctioned league) and I think the cost thing is REDICULOUS. I mean, I'm no Rockafeller...but you're talking $21-$24 a YEAR!!! Thats how much you pay to join the USBC. That is VERY cheap. And add on what? $7 or $13 to join the local USBC for the YEAR. I mean, come on. If you can't afford $2/month to join the USBC...maybe don't bother because the gas to drive back and forth is gonna run you that just pulling in and out of your driveway.

[Amyers]

I can only go by what I've seen in person and read on here...

And the leading arguements people had against joining "sanctioned leagues" was:
- cost
- length/duration

And I'll add based on the league Bunny and I did...I think there are some people that join non-sanctioned leagues because they know they can cheat and nobody really cares. And that seemed to be the case in that league.

Personally, and this is just my opinion, I think the length thing is silly (as Bowl1820 said, that can be changed for a sanctioned league) and I think the cost thing is REDICULOUS. I mean, I'm no Rockafeller...but you're talking $21-$24 a YEAR!!! Thats how much you pay to join the USBC. That is VERY cheap. And add on what? $7 or $13 to join the local USBC for the YEAR. I mean, come on. If you can't afford $2/month to join the USBC...maybe don't bother because the gas to drive back and forth is gonna run you that just pulling in and out of your driveway.

Not disagreeing with you I don't get the whole non sanctioned thing either but I do believe a portion of the weekly fees go to the USBC also not sure if I'm right about that but I think so.

[Mike White]

Not disagreeing with you I don't get the whole non sanctioned thing either but I do believe a portion of the weekly fees go to the USBC also not sure if I'm right about that but I think so.

The only $$ going to USBC is the once per year sanction card fee.

The approx $20 is split between Head Quarters in Texas, your state, and your local association.

I think the HQ is limited to $10, the state is something like $1, and the rest goes to the local association.

[Amyers]

The only $$ going to USBC is the once per year sanction card fee.

The approx $20 is split between Head Quarters in Texas, your state, and your local association.

I think the HQ is limited to $10, the state is something like $1, and the rest goes to the local association.

Ok thanks for straightening me out Mike

[Aslan]

Now to play devil's advocate and sort of agree with RV...one sport that I DO see the clique attitude hurting it is Golf.

I was thinking of this this morning. Lets say I want to take a friend or coworker to the golf course with me some weekend afternoon to golf...yet he's never golfed before.

I actually would NEVER do that. Why? Because with a new or bad golfer, everyone behind us would be totally peeved and upset. It would ruin whatever fun and relaxation the golfing provides.

I remember as a beginner golfer, one Saturday with another beginner golfer...it took us 6.5 hours to complete 18 holes (walking). We must have let 11-19 groups play through. And had we NOT let them play through...we'd have backed up the course so badly they'd have been shooting up on us or the Ranger would have showed up.

Golf, which has been in decline in much of the East/Midwest/South...is a dichotomy because they WANT it to be a popular sport...but they don't want more people cluttering up the courses and have no tolerance for any high handicap golfer they get stuck behind.