No "Skid/Flip" ball in my arsenal?

[RobLV1]

I understand that the cover stock is an essential component to skid/flip. It needs to be a pearl and it needs to be shiny. And it probably needs to be rather aggressive. But where there is a disconnect…is that the Encounter is a Pearl. The Slingshot is a Pearl. Neither of them are skid/flip.

I have always believed (and sort of still do) that you can't truly get an angular back end reaction without a > 250 rev rate. It's just physics. BUT…I admit I'm not 100% on the various cover stocks and how they differ. It just strikes me as odd that a bowling ball manufacturer would make an entire line of pro performance bowling balls and leave out a skid/flip ball. What do they tell their pros? "It's okay, just throw an Exile"?

IF I were to fill in that gap…which I am pretty sure I'm not going to because I'm about at my limit of what I want to carry around with me to league night and sport league. BUT…WHEN I win the VBT…I DO get a $25 gift certificate…sooooo…I was thinking of getting a Storm Gizmo…but I already have a training wrist brace. I was thinking maybe some abralon pads…maybe a bowling glove. But maybe I get the Exile! I hate paying more than $79 for a bowling ball though. But, maybe.

Perhaps the disconnect lies in what you are looking for. It's not so much about rev rate (though that does enter the equation to a degree) as it is about axis rotation. You don't have much axis rotation, so when you throw a skid/flip ball, you're not going to see a big change of direction. "Skid/Flip" just means that the ball is going to skid more in the oil, and react harder to the friction. Without much axis rotation, that reaction to the friction is not going to make the ball turn left, it's just going to jump forward harder. Try to ignore the smell of the money that's burning a hole in your pocket, and save up to get a ball that you really want, instead of just buying one that's cheap.

[Amyers]

I understand that the cover stock is an essential component to skid/flip. It needs to be a pearl and it needs to be shiny. And it probably needs to be rather aggressive. But where there is a disconnect…is that the Encounter is a Pearl. The Slingshot is a Pearl. Neither of them are skid/flip.

I have always believed (and sort of still do) that you can't truly get an angular back end reaction without a > 250 rev rate. It's just physics. BUT…I admit I'm not 100% on the various cover stocks and how they differ. It just strikes me as odd that a bowling ball manufacturer would make an entire line of pro performance bowling balls and leave out a skid/flip ball. What do they tell their pros? "It's okay, just throw an Exile"?

IF I were to fill in that gap…which I am pretty sure I'm not going to because I'm about at my limit of what I want to carry around with me to league night and sport league. BUT…WHEN I win the VBT…I DO get a $25 gift certificate…sooooo…I was thinking of getting a Storm Gizmo…but I already have a training wrist brace. I was thinking maybe some abralon pads…maybe a bowling glove. But maybe I get the Exile! I hate paying more than $79 for a bowling ball though. But, maybe.

Just because a ball dosen't list skid/flip in the intro doesn't mean that it is not a skid/flip ball. I think a lot of manufactures especially ones know for making that type of equipment don't market their equipment that way. You generally see it in the intro's of companies who are not known for making that kind of ball i.e. Brunswick Fortera

[Aslan]

Perhaps the disconnect lies in what you are looking for. It's not so much about rev rate (though that does enter the equation to a degree) as it is about axis rotation. You don't have much axis rotation, so when you throw a skid/flip ball, you're not going to see a big change of direction. "Skid/Flip" just means that the ball is going to skid more in the oil, and react harder to the friction. Without much axis rotation, that reaction to the friction is not going to make the ball turn left, it's just going to jump forward harder. Try to ignore the smell of the money that's burning a hole in your pocket, and save up to get a ball that you really want, instead of just buying one that's cheap.

1) When we meet next, I think you're going to be pleasantly surprised in terms of my new release and axis tilt. I am still working hard on it so I haven't even had time to shoot some video nor re-calculate the rev rate, etc...
2) My ball buying days are on hold. Thats one reason why I'm really resisting the urge to just "buy a skid/flip ball". I have 5 strike balls that all give me a different look into the pocket. Even if I were to do something completely NUTS like enter the USBC Open....thats TOTALLY ENOUGH balls.

It's just annoying that I did careful planning to ensure a relatively balanced arsenal and then I find out the cover stock on the Bullet Train is so dang strong that the polished/less aggressive Encounter is now my ball "down" option. I thought I could get away with using the Rhythm as a ball down but after working on the arsenal during my lesson Wednesday it was more apparent (as MWhite eluded to) that the Rhythm was burning out because it wanted to hook much sooner with the solid cover stock.

And THAT explains some of my issues statistically.

- I was starting with the Slingshot on a fresh pattern. It was going too long. It was hitting light...it was leaving washouts.
- So I would ball UP to something like the more aggressive (surface/drilled) Encounter.

BUT-
1) It was usually FAR too late to salvage my series (game 3 or later).
2) I would usually move IN (12-14) rather than stay OUT (8-11) when I switched to the Encounter because I was afraid the Encounter would react TOO much on the outside.

- Then I'd start striking more, but it was too little too late, and I'd also increase my split %.

Even when I used the more aggressive Encounter to start or the Rhythm;
- I'd have a good first game (195ish) and then start hitting through the head or the ball would burn out too soon and I'd be back in the 165ish range trying to adjust laterally and vertically rather than just reach in the bag and pull out the Frantic.

What I SHOULD have been doing is figured out not which ball covers more boards...but where each ball hooks. I then would have started out with the Rhythm (which is the ball I was having a LOT of success with before changing things up) either up the 8, 10, or 12-13 boards...picking a line where it didn't hook too soon and burn out...and giving myself the most miss room. If I saw it start to hit too left...I could make a quick adjustment...but if it didn't work...IMMEDIATELY switch to the more aggressive Encounter on that SAME line. Not switch balls AND lines.

At least thats the new, revised strategy. I know YOU probably don't like the idea of limiting it too near to the track. But like I touched on in the coaching thread...I'm not totally sold on this new system either because I don't like (or more accurately am not 'comfortable') with a few things:
1) Not allowing the lanes to dictate how you play them and "forcing" your comfort zone. <----I think you'll agree here.
2) Not expanding my game to really develop an Inside, Outside, and middle/track game. I've always felt you need 3 lines and 3 speeds.
3) I'm not sure I like starting with the most aggressive ball EVERY time. The 'benchmark' concept gives me more options...although I can now see it also gives me some limitations.
4) I really don't like the trend towards "arsenal bowling" where bowlers become too dependent on their equipment. I realize it's easier to change a ball than a release/approach. But I also see a LOT of arsenal bowlers that never learn things like horizontal AND vertical movements because they simply spend the whole night cycling between balls trying to find magic in a bottle. And at the end of the night shrug their shoulders and say, "The lanes were messed up. None of my balls worked."

aslan if you want a skid/flip ball for a cheap price go with the freeze pearl or hybrid.

Sorry striker...but thats NOT a skid/flip ball. From what I can tell, it would have the length but not the snap. Most noticeable, it's a symmetric core. I've never seen a skid/flip ball with a symmetric core. Symmetric cores are renowned for their ability to smooth that arc/angle out.

Thanks All!

[Amyers]

A few things hear your new ball strategy sounds a lot like things I have been saying for a while. Skid/flip has nothing to do with symmetric/asymmetric (asymmetric balls tend to have more midlane read the opposite of skid/flip. For instance the Hyroad pearl and Hysteria two of the more skid flip balls both symmetric. The Fortera Exile is more the odd ball being skid/flip and asymmetric. Maybe for now you are better suited to developing the outside game before moving farther in to work on the middle and inside game.

[Aslan]

A few things hear your new ball strategy sounds a lot like things I have been saying for a while. Skid/flip has nothing to do with symmetric/asymmetric (asymmetric balls tend to have more midlane read the opposite of skid/flip. For instance the Hyroad pearl and Hysteria two of the more skid flip balls both symmetric. The Fortera Exile is more the odd ball being skid/flip and asymmetric. Maybe for now you are better suited to developing the outside game before moving farther in to work on the middle and inside game.

Wel, I'll agree and disagree.

A "skid/flip" ball should generally have a assymetric core because the angular back end needs a more sudden change of direction. Symmetric cores are almost always designed to give a bowler a smooth arc. Some go longer than others and you also need that aggressive cover stock as Rob has mentioned. I've never seen a Hysteria thrown...but I've not seen a Hy Road Pearl act in a skid/flip way.

That being said, the closest thing I have to a skid/flip...based on visible reaction...is my Slingshot. It "shouldn't be". It's got a symmetric core, a low Diff., and an entry level cover stock. But, it does go very long before reading the friction and does have a bit of "jump" at the end. Thats why I switched to a plastic ball for spares. The Slingshot, on lanes with extremely dry outsides, the dang Slinghshot would "bounce" as if it it a nickel on the lane...and costed me some 10-pins. With my new release...forget about it...it no longer goes straight when it hits friction.

Where I'll agree that you were right is...you were the first one to question why I was using the Slingshot as my strike ball. It turns out...that may have been one of the more serious contributors to my recent issues. I was trying to make that ball do something it wasn't designed to do. Looking back at some of those series...I see plain as day that the ball wasn't reading early enough and I just kept fighting it. On sport patterns...FOUR games...suddenly I'd throw a 191 game because the lanes finally broke down enough where it would work. So I'd average 155 when had I made a better arsenal decision to start...maybe I average 190.

[RobLV1]

Wel, I'll agree and disagree.

A "skid/flip" ball should generally have a assymetric core because the angular back end needs a more sudden change of direction. Symmetric cores are almost always designed to give a bowler a smooth arc. Some go longer than others and you also need that aggressive cover stock as Rob has mentioned. I've never seen a Hysteria thrown...but I've not seen a Hy Road Pearl act in a skid/flip way.

That being said, the closest thing I have to a skid/flip...based on visible reaction...is my Slingshot. It "shouldn't be". It's got a symmetric core, a low Diff., and an entry level cover stock. But, it does go very long before reading the friction and does have a bit of "jump" at the end. Thats why I switched to a plastic ball for spares. The Slingshot, on lanes with extremely dry outsides, the dang Slinghshot would "bounce" as if it it a nickel on the lane...and costed me some 10-pins. With my new release...forget about it...it no longer goes straight when it hits friction.

Where I'll agree that you were right is...you were the first one to question why I was using the Slingshot as my strike ball. It turns out...that may have been one of the more serious contributors to my recent issues. I was trying to make that ball do something it wasn't designed to do. Looking back at some of those series...I see plain as day that the ball wasn't reading early enough and I just kept fighting it. On sport patterns...FOUR games...suddenly I'd throw a 191 game because the lanes finally broke down enough where it would work. So I'd average 155 when had I made a better arsenal decision to start...maybe I average 190.

So here you go again with the symmetric vs. asymmetric and differential references to finding a skid/ball. Do you just like to argue? You yourself said the your Slingshot has the most skid/flip reaction you've seen, and it's an entry level ball. You proved that it's all about surface with your own observation, yet you continue with the core nonsense. Please, do me a favor. Since you obviously are developing an arsenal, take the time to at least learn the basics about bowling balls: the higher the low rg, the more resistance there is to the ball revving up, so the further it goes down the lane, the differential is the difference between the high rg and the low rg - the higher the differential is, the more flare potential the ball has, and the lower your rev rate is, the less flare you're going to get regardless of the balls flare potential. The layout is how the core is positioned within the ball, and the layout determines the actual rg and differential, though it does not vary that much from those numbers on the undrilled ball. If you understood any of this, you wouldn't be at all surprised that the Slingshot wasn't the right ball to use on fresh oil, just based on the fact that it has an rg of 2.58 that puts it at the very top of the useable range of "real" bowling balls. This is a great place to learn about bowling balls, just ask instead of trying to figure it all out based on your own observations. There are many of us who will be glad to help you to learn.

[Amyers]

Definition of a Skid Flip Ball.

Higher RG- Why the ball has to get farther done the lane before hooking

Strong cover stock- Cover has to be strong to break the ball out of it skid

High grit finish or polished- To store the energy the ball will need to break at the end most will have 4000 or polished finish

Typically symmetric core- Asymmetric cores are designed to make the ball roll earlier in heavier oil (there are exceptions to this Fortera Exile and Ruckus Schinzo off the top of my head sure there are more)

Its hard to get more skid flip than a Hyroad pearl goes longer and snaps back more than anything I can think of. I'm sure there are exceptions to all of these I am speaking in general here. If anyone else can think of additional things to add please do or correct me if I'm wrong about something.

[bubba809]

I have an asymmetric Jet Black Taboo (RG 2.50 Diff .060) drilled pin up with high balance hole. Surface is at 500/2000 with a good coat of polish.

Most Skid/Flip ball I've ever used...and I used A LOT of surfaces on many balls.

Most surprising...it's VERY controllable.

[RobLV1]

Definition of a Skid Flip Ball.

Higher RG- Why the ball has to get farther done the lane before hooking

Strong cover stock- Cover has to be strong to break the ball out of it skid

High grit finish or polished- To store the energy the ball will need to break at the end most will have 4000 or polished finish

Typically symmetric core- Asymmetric cores are designed to make the ball roll earlier in heavier oil (there are exceptions to this Fortera Exile and Ruckus Schinzo off the top of my head sure there are more)

Its hard to get more skid flip than a Hyroad pearl goes longer and snaps back more than anything I can think of. I'm sure there are exceptions to all of these I am speaking in general here. If anyone else can think of additional things to add please do or correct me if I'm wrong about something.

The Exile actually has a fairly low rg at 2.51, yet it is very skid/flippy bases soley on the reactivity of the cover material and the finish that is applied to the ball. Storm's Zero Gravity has an asymmetric core and a low rg of 2.55 to get it down the lane. The Hyroad Pearl certainly has the characteristics to make it skid/flippy, particularly if it is polished and uses a layout that will promote a skid/flip reaction.

[Aslan]

Rob-

I agree with like 95% of what you're saying. You always think people are being disagreeable if they don't fall in line with that last 5%!!!

Where I'm either disagreeing or maybe just confused...is that in NUMEROUS videos, literature, blogs, forums, etc.. there is a belief that a symmetric core has a smooth, arcing roll. And assymetric core a less smooth, less predictable arc/angle. If you are saying that is NOT the case...okay. Then you disagree. But your entire response, you didn't really address the difference between an assymetric and symmetric core...nor a "stronger" versus "weaker" core.

Like I said, all of what you said regarding the ball I think are spot on...but the difference in opinion is about how the core itself interacts with that process. Not the differential...not the RG....those things are exactly what you said. I'm simply asking about the core itself in terms of symmetric vs assymetric...and "strong" versus "weak".

I've found ONE ball that in it's advertisement blatently states it is a skid/flip ball and that is the Exile*. I seems to have the marketing, RG, DIff, core, and cover stock that all line up together to make a ball that I would, according to my understanding, say is a "skid/flip" ball. Amyers is talking about a symmetic Hy Road and Striker about a Columbia Freeze. Neither of these balls compare favorably in terms of numbers to the Exile:

Bruinswick Fortera Exile: RG = 2.537, Diff. = 0.050, Core = assymetric, cover stock = shiny pearl. PerfectScale = 229.7.

Columbia Freeze: RG = 2.560, Diff. = 0.047, Core = symmetric, cover stock = shiny pearl. PerfectScale = 168.5.

Storm Hy Road Pearl: RG = 2.57, Diff. = 0.046, Core = symmetric, cover stock = shiny pearl. PerfectScale = 188.6.

As to marketing, I will admit that the Hy Road Pearl does market it as long and a strong backend. So it DOES market it as essentially a skid/flip*. And I've never seen anyone throw either the Hysteria or Hy Road Pearl. I've seen a lot of people throw the Hy Road and a couple the Hy Road Solid...but not the Pearl.

But, I guess the point was options and discussion about a "skid/flip" ball and thats what we're doing. Amyers also added the option of the Hy Road Pearl which I now see IS marketed as essentially skid/flip...so good job Amyers! For some reason I thought you were talking about the standard Hy Road.