No "Skid/Flip" ball in my arsenal?

[Amyers]

Rob-

I agree with like 95% of what you're saying. You always think people are being disagreeable if they don't fall in line with that last 5%!!!

Where I'm either disagreeing or maybe just confused...is that in NUMEROUS videos, literature, blogs, forums, etc.. there is a belief that a symmetric core has a smooth, arcing roll. And assymetric core a less smooth, less predictable arc/angle. If you are saying that is NOT the case...okay. Then you disagree. But your entire response, you didn't really address the difference between an assymetric and symmetric core...nor a "stronger" versus "weaker" core.

Like I said, all of what you said regarding the ball I think are spot on...but the difference in opinion is about how the core itself interacts with that process. Not the differential...not the RG....those things are exactly what you said. I'm simply asking about the core itself in terms of symmetric vs assymetric...and "strong" versus "weak".

I've found ONE ball that in it's advertisement blatently states it is a skid/flip ball and that is the Exile*. I seems to have the marketing, RG, DIff, core, and cover stock that all line up together to make a ball that I would, according to my understanding, say is a "skid/flip" ball. Amyers is talking about a symmetic Hy Road and Striker about a Columbia Freeze. Neither of these balls compare favorably in terms of numbers to the Exile:

Bruinswick Fortera Exile: RG = 2.537, Diff. = 0.050, Core = assymetric, cover stock = shiny pearl. PerfectScale = 229.7.

Columbia Freeze: RG = 2.560, Diff. = 0.047, Core = symmetric, cover stock = shiny pearl. PerfectScale = 168.5.

Storm Hy Road Pearl: RG = 2.57, Diff. = 0.046, Core = symmetric, cover stock = shiny pearl. PerfectScale = 188.6.

As to marketing, I will admit that the Hy Road Pearl does market it as long and a strong backend. So it DOES market it as essentially a skid/flip*. And I've never seen anyone throw either the Hysteria or Hy Road Pearl. I've seen a lot of people throw the Hy Road and a couple the Hy Road Solid...but not the Pearl.

But, I guess the point was options and discussion about a "skid/flip" ball and thats what we're doing. Amyers also added the option of the Hy Road Pearl which I now see IS marketed as essentially skid/flip...so good job Amyers! For some reason I thought you were talking about the standard Hy Road.

Yeah more with the pearl and definitely not the solid Hyroad. Some people don't like skid/flip ball reactions so I think that is why you don't really see it in the advertising. The purpose I have been told with asymmetrical cores is to make the ball roll earlier and give more mid lane read which is useful on more heavily oiled conditions. I could be incorrect with that as I don't own any and most of the balls I see people throw tend to be symmetrical. I think Rob is correct in that it has more to do with the cover than the cores but having a core that rends to go longer I would think makes it more likely to get that reaction.

All three of the balls you listed have the propensity to be skid flip the biggest differences is going to be strength of the reaction and how much oil they will handle. If all you wanted was skid/flip (not sure why you would) might not make a bad arsenal. Exile, Hyroad Pearl, and Freeze in order of strength

[Aslan]

My understanding of a core...and this MAY be wrong....DISCLAIMER!!....

Is a core is kinda like if you get a pair of scissors. Some scissors have the same size holes for the finger and thumb. These are symmetric scissors. Many scissors have a bigger hole for the thumb and aren't symmetric.

If you put your pointing finger in the finger hole and "spin/rotate" the scissors around in a circle (careful not to hurt yourself)....the motion will be very uniform. If you take the same finger and put it in the finger hole for the non-symmetric scissors (with the bigger thumb hole)....and rotate/spin them around (also careful not to hurt yourself), you will "feel" that the weight isn't balanced and it won't rotate as smoothly around.

As far as I know, a bowling ball works the same way. If you have no core, or a small core, or a symmetric core...the ball rotates around that core in a very predictable manner with a more slight change of dirrection. If you have a core that is oddly shaped and bigger...you have the other end of the spectrum where the ball is wanting to pull itself harder and less predictably into the direction of the spin/axis rotation. So once that ball gets friction...the symmetric core should give it a smooth change of direction. An assymetric ball is gonna be more "jerky" which theoretically will lead to a more abrupt turn...yet less predictable.

Lets see if my hypothesis is correct (text in italics is borrowed from other sources. I will do my best to site those sources):

Symmetric vs Asymmetric Bowling Balls

Understanding symmetric versus asymmetric bowling balls can be a help in selecting your next bowling ball. Bowling ball symmetry varies from ball to ball based upon certain factors engineered into the ball construction process. Familiarizing yourself with symmetric versus asymmetric bowling balls is also a step in understanding bowling ball motion.

Let's examine the primary differences between symmetric and asymmetric balls:

1. Symmetrical Core (undrilled) - A ball where the RG (radius of gyration) values of the Y (high RG) and Z (intermediate RG) axes of the ball do not differ by more than 5% of the total differential of the ball.

2. Asymmetrical Core (undrilled) - A ball where the RG (radius of gyration) values of the Y (high RG) and Z (intermediate RG) axes of the ball differ by more than 5% of the total differential of the ball.

Symmetrical drilled balls yield small differential ratios. Small differential ratios will produce a smooth, controllable motion when compared to an asymmetrical ball.

Asymmetrical drilled balls show a defined, angular motion. These balls can create more area at the break point and will respond to friction faster at the break point than symmetrical balls.
- bowlingball.com

Episode 84 of TalkBowling mentioned similar points and added that assymetric can sometimes be more succeptible to changesinconsistent release.

Randy Pederson in his video "Bowling Ball Selection for the Tournament Bowler" repeated many of those points but added that a higher RG is going to go longer (and why that is) and an assymetric core is going to react in a more pronounced way when it reads friction.

Asymmetrical drilled balls show a defined, angular motion. These balls can create more area at the break point and will respond to friction faster at the break point than symmetrical balls.- Bowling Concurrent Website

The combination of a high RG ball coupled with high differential ratings and with a stiff or pearl coverstock will yield the "skid-flip" ball motion you seek. Also, using a drill pattern to create a long skid and sharp hook ball motion will augment the coverstock and core design properties and help you get the ball reaction you seek. - bowlingball.com

1. No, you don't have to be a high rev player to benefit from a skid/flip ball reaction. You do, however, need to be aware that skid/flip balls are designed to skid in the oil and react hard to the friction. This pretty much means that you have to make sure that you are finding oil to get the ball down the lane before it finds friction. If you play to far outside and find friction too early, the ball will hook early, lose energy, and hit like a marshmallow.
2. The fact that you are speed dominant, and aware of the fact, will simply limit the range of balls from which you have to choose. The low rg is the determining factor. As a speed dominant player, you should find a ball that is in the mid rg range, from 2.51 to 2.55 to get assistance from the ball in revving up a little earlier than a high rg ball. The Marauder Mutiny should be a good choice with an rg of 2.524.
3. Thanks for asking this question. Most any ball driller can tell you horror stories about customers who come in to buy a ball about which they've already made up their minds, a ball that is designed to roll early and smooth, and tell the driller to lay it out to go long and snap. If you want a ball to go long and snap, then buy a ball that was designed to go long and snap. Think of the layout as the transmission on a motor vehicle. If you take a dump truck and put in a transmission that is designed for a race car, you still have a dump truck. If you want a race care, then buy one. The same is true for bowling balls. - Rob Mautner, "Skid/Flip Balls" from BowlingIntel.com

Another site had people list the top skid/flip balls from 2012/2013 and the notables were:

1) Rotogrip Shatter
2) Brunswick Nexxxus f(P+S)
3) 900Global Dirty Look
4) Hammer First Blood
5) Ebonite Cyclone

The most common ball mentioned for the best skid/flip is the Marvel Pearl.

NOT arguing...just providing more information from all over the Net/Interweb for everyone's knowledge/interest.

[RobLV1]

Rob-

I agree with like 95% of what you're saying. You always think people are being disagreeable if they don't fall in line with that last 5%!!!

Where I'm either disagreeing or maybe just confused...is that in NUMEROUS videos, literature, blogs, forums, etc.. there is a belief that a symmetric core has a smooth, arcing roll. And assymetric core a less smooth, less predictable arc/angle. If you are saying that is NOT the case...okay. Then you disagree. But your entire response, you didn't really address the difference between an assymetric and symmetric core...nor a "stronger" versus "weaker" core.

Like I said, all of what you said regarding the ball I think are spot on...but the difference in opinion is about how the core itself interacts with that process. Not the differential...not the RG....those things are exactly what you said. I'm simply asking about the core itself in terms of symmetric vs assymetric...and "strong" versus "weak".

I've found ONE ball that in it's advertisement blatently states it is a skid/flip ball and that is the Exile*. I seems to have the marketing, RG, DIff, core, and cover stock that all line up together to make a ball that I would, according to my understanding, say is a "skid/flip" ball. Amyers is talking about a symmetic Hy Road and Striker about a Columbia Freeze. Neither of these balls compare favorably in terms of numbers to the Exile:

Bruinswick Fortera Exile: RG = 2.537, Diff. = 0.050, Core = assymetric, cover stock = shiny pearl. PerfectScale = 229.7.

Columbia Freeze: RG = 2.560, Diff. = 0.047, Core = symmetric, cover stock = shiny pearl. PerfectScale = 168.5.

Storm Hy Road Pearl: RG = 2.57, Diff. = 0.046, Core = symmetric, cover stock = shiny pearl. PerfectScale = 188.6.

As to marketing, I will admit that the Hy Road Pearl does market it as long and a strong backend. So it DOES market it as essentially a skid/flip*. And I've never seen anyone throw either the Hysteria or Hy Road Pearl. I've seen a lot of people throw the Hy Road and a couple the Hy Road Solid...but not the Pearl.

But, I guess the point was options and discussion about a "skid/flip" ball and thats what we're doing. Amyers also added the option of the Hy Road Pearl which I now see IS marketed as essentially skid/flip...so good job Amyers! For some reason I thought you were talking about the standard Hy Road.

What we have here is a failure to communicate, or, more specifically, a difference in difinging terms. When we talk about a "stronger" ball, we are normally referring to a ball that covers more boards, or, more precisely, a ball that rolls earlier. When you talk about a ball with an asymmetric core providing a "stronger" reaction, I think you are probably talking about an increase in the amount of hook angle. When you are referring to a high rev player with a lot of axis rotation then, yes, an asymmetrically-core ball will give him more hook angle. For the rest of us, a ball with an asymmetrical core may give us 5% more hook angle, but it will also magnify our release mistakes by at least 50%. Is 5% more angle on perfect shots worth 50% larger errors on less than perfect shots worth it to you? If it is, then run out and find all the balls with asymmetrical cores that you can, and spend eight hours a day, seven days a week, perfecting your release.

[MICHAEL]

A lot of talk about surface of ball! I did an experiment with the two Deadly-Aims the other day! I put them on the spinner and did the factory surface on both. The only difference being the WAY THEY were DRILLED. I took them both to league today, to see the difference!

The deadly aim the Rob gave Iceman still has a skid and flip shortly before entering the pocket! Its a nice move that I like sometimes depending on the oil.

Iceman's original Deadly Aim with the same surface still has that nice gradual arc to the pocket!

So with this experiment, I have found out that surface does not make both balls roll to the pocket in the same manner!

I will post a picture of each ball and their pin positions and balance holes!

How a ball is drilled, and maybe even how big, and where the balance hole is, DOES make a big difference as far as I can see, with surfaces being equal!

[Aslan]

@Rob- See...I agree with ALL of that!!

@Ice- A "skid/flip" ball is generally not a hybrid cover stock. The cover stock solid and hybrid generally read the lanes earlier....a skid flip you generally want to go longer and thus they are usually Pearls.

IF I were to add a skid/flip ball...which I really don't think is overly necessary unless my current coach insists or talks me into it...

I would really like to add something I already have.

And IF the Encounter isn't a good skid/flip ball (despite it having measurements and marketng that elludes to it going long and snapping)...

The best two choices of the balls I have....from what I'm seeing/reading...are:

The Track706a OR the Radical Reax Pearl. And the Reax Pearl has the added advantage of not only it being shiny (4000 versus the 2000 of the Encounter and 706a) but it also has a higher PerfectScale rating AND is newer and I'm assuming will have a more aggressive cover. The downside is the original Reax Pearl got a bit of a bad wrap because Radical quickly released a Reax Version 2 which many people rumored was because the orignal Reax Pearl wasn't quite as good as planned.

[Aslan]

AHow a ball is drilled, and maybe even how big, and where the balance hole is, DOES make a big difference as far as I can see, with surfaces being equal!

Just for debate; I have video evidence that would refute the hypothesis that a change in drilling has a noticeable effect on ball motion. And numerous studies have been done by the USBC and others that have confirmed surface is about 70-90% of ball motion change effectiveness is surface/cover.

I just need to shoot the last portion of the video that shows the surface change and how the ball reaction DID change when the surface was changed. I haven't gotten around to that yet.

There is also some question as to just HOW DIFFERENT my two bowling balls were drilled....and thats a complicated topic. My instructions to MWhite (bowling ball driller to the Stars) was to not only drill them differently...but also keep them legal and make them USEABLE despite my lack of skill. That last one was a tall order, I admit.

[Mike White]

Just for debate; I have video evidence that would refute the hypothesis that a change in drilling has a noticeable effect on ball motion. And numerous studies have been done by the USBC and others that have confirmed surface is about 70-90% of ball motion change effectiveness is surface/cover.

I just need to shoot the last portion of the video that shows the surface change and how the ball reaction DID change when the surface was changed. I haven't gotten around to that yet.

There is also some question as to just HOW DIFFERENT my two bowling balls were drilled....and thats a complicated topic. My instructions to MWhite (bowling ball driller to the Stars) was to not only drill them differently...but also keep them legal and make them USEABLE despite my lack of skill. That last one was a tall order, I admit.

There is serious problems with your video evidence.

Lets say one drill pattern makes your ball hook 20% more.

With one ball, it might hook 30 boards for me, and the other ball would hook 36 boards.

For your release, you might get 5 boards of hook, so using the second ball, you would get 6 boards.

That one extra board is indistinguishable due to your inconsistency of hitting your target line.

[MICHAEL]

Just for debate; I have video evidence that would refute the hypothesis that a change in drilling has a noticeable effect on ball motion. And numerous studies have been done by the USBC and others that have confirmed surface is about 70-90% of ball motion change effectiveness is surface/cover.

I just need to shoot the last portion of the video that shows the surface change and how the ball reaction DID change when the surface was changed. I haven't gotten around to that yet.

There is also some question as to just HOW DIFFERENT my two bowling balls were drilled....and thats a complicated topic. My instructions to MWhite (bowling ball driller to the Stars) was to not only drill them differently...but also keep them legal and make them USEABLE despite my lack of skill. That last one was a tall order, I admit.

I am not going to argue with YOU!!! The ball that ROB gave me has a long skid, and then flip the last few feet! The ball I purchased, with the same surface, does NOT FLIP, but rather moves in a long steady movement!

DRILLING DOES MAKE a difference along with the placement of balance hole ... MY Deadly-Aims proved it to ICE!!



Even the Dude was present and noticed the difference, in skid length, and flip at the end!

[Aslan]

There is serious problems with your video evidence.

Lets say one drill pattern makes your ball hook 20% more.

With one ball, it might hook 30 boards for me, and the other ball would hook 36 boards.

For your release, you might get 5 boards of hook, so using the second ball, you would get 6 boards.

That one extra board is indistinguishable due to your inconsistency of hitting your target line.

ding ding ding ding!! I bet not even Rob would argue with you there!!

BUT....even with a very low rev release...I bet a sanded ball moves more than a polished one! Right?

[fortheloveofbowling]

Mr Aslan,

1) Do you know your pap position?
2) Do you have access to a pro shop operator that knows his product line and has a grasp on laying out a ball?
3) Does this guy know your game and can he watch you throw the ball before recommending a layout?

It is hard enough to get a ball to do exactly what you want but without a educated guy on the drill chances become less. We can all look at the numbers on a ball and think that will do the job but the wrong drill and you end up not getting what you want. Believe me, i have purchased many balls that did not quite turn out the way i wanted and most every time is was my fault because it was my layout. My driller and i have my layouts and what i like to see as far as motion figured out pretty well now but you have to start with the right ball as well. Find a pro shop guy that knows your game and knows what he is doing and stick with him.