No "Skid/Flip" ball in my arsenal?

[fortheloveofbowling]

I said pin farther to the right meaning towards the pap is making the core more stable decreasing the flare. The vertical axis line is an entrely different story. You have a pin up ball and still have a 2 inch pin buffer from the val. You should be concerned with your student rather than arguing. I'm not going to argue with you rob and in my opinion those driils are a detriment to aslan creating a ball motion that will help his game. Quite frankly if you are going through a 6 ball progression on a shot just short of a house condition and average in the 180's maybe you don't have a handle on your own layouts.

[RobLV1]

I said pin farther to the right meaning towards the pap is making the core more stable decreasing the flare. The vertical axis line is an entrely different story. You have a pin up ball and still have a 2 inch pin buffer from the val. You should be concerned with your student rather than arguing. I'm not going to argue with you rob and in my opinion those driils are a detriment to aslan creating a ball motion that will help his game. Quite frankly if you are going through a 6 ball progression on a shot just short of a house condition and average in the 180's maybe you don't have a handle on your own layouts.

So you are saying that putting the pin closer to the PAP is going to decrease the flare? That's nonsense. If you are talking about putting the pin so far up that it maintains a 2" pin buffer, that wouldn't work at all for Aslan. I've given him two lessons, and seen him bowl three times. I know his roll. Have you actually seen him bowl, or just watched a video? As to my averaging in the 180's and going through a six ball progression, could it be that I'm just a crappy senior bowler who can't repeat a shot because his body is falling apart? I will say that each time I changed balls last night, I struck on the first shot with the ball change. Does that really sound like I don't have a handle on my own layouts? My knowledge has nothing to do with my own bowling or my physical ability to bowl. It has to do with my intellect and all of the hours of research that I've put into the subject.

[fortheloveofbowling]

Symmetrical balls are said to have the most flare at 3 3/8 from the pap and anything less or more reduces flare the more your go from that. Asymmetrical anything between 2 3/8 up to 6 about the same and anything closer decreases the flare. My point is based the perception that aslan is not a high track player and thus is pap is in a area that is to close to those pins in most cases. As his coach and familiar with all aspects of his game including equipment and utilization of that equipment i'm sure you know his pap correct?
As far as your game don't tell me about health, you just bowled a ten gamer. I saw the video from you guys and your more than capable of making good shots physically.

[Mike White]

Putting the pin further right (for a right-handed bowler) does not make the core more stable, in fact, if you look at the BTM article about the Storm VDLS System, written by Steve Kloempkin at Storm, a pin buffer of 2" from the VAL, produces the most flare. Flare is produced by an unstable core position, not a stable one. What is more significant, putting the pin above the bridge or the ring finger, depending on the PAP of the individual bowler, usually equates to a longer, weaker, pin to PAP distance. Not "kicking out" the PSA results in less core involvement. Personally, I just had a ball drilled for fried lanes with the pin under the bridge, toward the middle finger, and the cg straight down to the thumb hole. I chose this layout for maximum length and minimum core involvement, which is exactly what I got from it. What a particular layout does for one bowler, does not necessarily equate to another bowler unless their styles and PAP's are the same. It's all about angles and distances.

Wow, Rob, sorry, but you put your foot in your mouth yet again.

In that article, they were using the layout of 4x4x?

In the context of 4x4x? between the options of 0.5, 2, and 3.5, 2 did produce the most.

But that isn't the same as saying "a pin buffer of 2" from the VAL, produces the most flare."

It's quite possible that 1.5, 2.5, or 3" pin buffer would produce the most flare in a 4x4x? layout.

If they change from 4x4x? to 4x5x? then a different pin buffer amount would produce the most flare.

Another interpretation of the graphic would be that the "across" migration path produces more flare than the up, or down paths.

That may or may not be true, but it's a more reasonable conclusion than "a pin buffer of 2" from the VAL, produces the most flare."

[Mike White]

So you are saying that putting the pin closer to the PAP is going to decrease the flare? That's nonsense. If you are talking about putting the pin so far up that it maintains a 2" pin buffer, that wouldn't work at all for Aslan. I've given him two lessons, and seen him bowl three times. I know his roll. Have you actually seen him bowl, or just watched a video? As to my averaging in the 180's and going through a six ball progression, could it be that I'm just a crappy senior bowler who can't repeat a shot because his body is falling apart? I will say that each time I changed balls last night, I struck on the first shot with the ball change. Does that really sound like I don't have a handle on my own layouts? My knowledge has nothing to do with my own bowling or my physical ability to bowl. It has to do with my intellect and all of the hours of research that I've put into the subject.

In Vegas I had a Trop Breeze with the pin about 1" from the PAP, and yes it decreases the flare.

Decreasing the flare along with axis tilt for me causes the ball to go further past the end of the oil pattern before snapping left.

Its my axis of rotation combined with rev rate that causes the ball to launch left.

I believe I bounced one or two off the 1 board well down the lane, that went brooklyn.

[RobLV1]

Symmetrical balls are said to have the most flare at 3 3/8 from the pap and anything less or more reduces flare the more your go from that. Asymmetrical anything between 2 3/8 up to 6 about the same and anything closer decreases the flare. My point is based the perception that aslan is not a high track player and thus is pap is in a area that is to close to those pins in most cases. As his coach and familiar with all aspects of his game including equipment and utilization of that equipment i'm sure you know his pap correct?
As far as your game don't tell me about health, you just bowled a ten gamer. I saw the video from you guys and your more than capable of making good shots physically.

The one thing that I know about Aslan is that he works with so many different coaches and tries so many different things, that his PAP today is most probably totally different than it was back in September. I do know that the layout that you describe for him with the pin above the bridge and the cg kicked out just slightly is the layout that Ebonite recommends for use for bowlers whose PAP is unknown, in other words, bowlers that the driller has never seen bowl. It is recommended because it is safe for unknown styles.

As far as my health goes, the only reason that I bowled the ten gamer is that it was the first event at the new stadium and I didn't want to miss it. Each time I bowl, it's just a matter of what is going to hurt today. I have two bulging discs in my lower back, and one in my neck. I also have arthritis in my neck as well as in both hands. I have two ankles where the ligaments have been torn several times from playing basketball, two knees that are weak and arthritic from being a catcher in baseball, a torn rotator cuff, also from baseball. Can I bowl decently? Yes, occasionally. Can I bowl through a lot of pain? Yes, but sometimes not very well as hard as I try, though I still I love the game. As I said before, please don't equate my own ability, or lack of ability, to bowl as any indication of my ability and desire to help other bowlers. I am a teacher, and to try to discredit me because of my own lack of ability in playing the game myself, is doing a disservice not only to me, but to the bowlers that I try to help.

[RobLV1]

Wow, Rob, sorry, but you put your foot in your mouth yet again.

In that article, they were using the layout of 4x4x?

In the context of 4x4x? between the options of 0.5, 2, and 3.5, 2 did produce the most.

But that isn't the same as saying "a pin buffer of 2" from the VAL, produces the most flare."

It's quite possible that 1.5, 2.5, or 3" pin buffer would produce the most flare in a 4x4x? layout.

If they change from 4x4x? to 4x5x? then a different pin buffer amount would produce the most flare.

Another interpretation of the graphic would be that the "across" migration path produces more flare than the up, or down paths.

That may or may not be true, but it's a more reasonable conclusion than "a pin buffer of 2" from the VAL, produces the most flare."

Once again, Mike, you are picking at nits. I'm afraid that it is time, once again, just to ignore anything that you have to say about me. You are a very insecure small man, and hopefully, anyone who is looking for advice on this site who I try to help will quickly see that, and not let your crusade to discredit me keep them from getting the help they need. I will not be responding to you again.

[fortheloveofbowling]

Rob,

This is the last i am going to say about this matter. First of all in relation to the initial thread, my posting were to try to point out that Mr Aslan may want to try some different things with his drillings. Based on the pictures of the balls he posted i think you may agree he could POSSIBLY see some different and MAYBE beneficial motions. The man is trying to improve his game and that MAY be worth a try.

In regards to the time you have put in learning the game and the information you possess, that is obvious. Effective teachers and coaches have an open mind and exchange information with colleagues, students, players, and yes individuals like mike or myself or anyone on here that may have something to offer occasionally. I am not saying you don't do that with people you perceive has having equal intellect and knowledge about the game. But when on a simple subject like the baker conversation with mike in the end instead of saying yeah your right i thought different, you say what ever you say mike. Then when i am just trying to offer an option, you say NONSENSE and never really acknowledge that MAYBE JUST MAYBE some one may have a point. Nobody is trying to discredit you and i have written before the sport needs more people like you. My point is that just because you write something in relation to a topic you can not expect people to think that is the end all be all. You know that one thing works for one and not another in this game in some instances. Again, exchanging of thoughts, ideas, information makes an educator in general tremendously more effective. I do wish you success with coaching and do believe you have the knowledge to help people in the sport.

[Mike White]

Once again, Mike, you are picking at nits. I'm afraid that it is time, once again, just to ignore anything that you have to say about me. You are a very insecure small man, and hopefully, anyone who is looking for advice on this site who I try to help will quickly see that, and not let your crusade to discredit me keep them from getting the help they need. I will not be responding to you again.

I have no beef with your teaching of others how to throw the ball.

However when it comes to the technical side of what a ball does, and how to drill it, you're out of your element.

Even when you are simply quoting what you've read, you find a way to misinterpret it.

[Aslan]

The one thing that I know about Aslan is that he works with so many different coaches and tries so many different things, that his PAP today is most probably totally different than it was back in September.

That is actually true. I've worked on so many game altering things since Vegas that I can't even stop and video it because it's constantly, constantly a work in progress. It's exhausting, but hopefully will make me better in the end. Tonight I'll be working on footwork and my shoulder:

1) As Rob pointed out in Vegas, my footwork needs to be SLOWER. I have a tendency to "run" like a horse when they leave the gate at a horse race.
2) My current coach pointed out that I need the footwork to be fluid. While messing with my timing, I developed a bad habit of starting my approach...sort of hesitating...then continuing.

3) As a result of watching some tips from Mark Baker's video...I'm going to continue working on "quieting" my shoulders. I have the bad tendency (or good depending on who you talk to AKA J. Slowinski) to drop my shoulder rather than bend my knee. I've always had questionable knees since little league and even though I THINK I'm getting low...my knees have a natural resistance...so I end up too vertical...and drop the shoulder to compensate...and then I'm off balance and fall to the right.

So yes, Rob is correct there. The Aslan he saw in Vegas was NOT the Aslan he gave lesson #1 to. Much of that was adopting the things he showed me in lesson #1...with a modification here or there. And the Aslan he will see (God willing) in March (when the league sweeps in Vegas...lesson #3)...will hopefully be FAR different...and hopefully FAR better.

And that is why I now have a REGULAR coach. I can't get a lesson from Rob twice a year...he knows his stuff...but I mess with myself too much between the lessons and in many cases will adopt bad habits that he then needs to "fix" during the next lesson. I DO still want to see him though when I go to Vegas because I'm a firm believer that having more than one set of eyes on your game can be beneficial. Sometimes it can be distracting...but as the bowler...I have the task of grabbing tightly to the stuff that seems to work...and putting the rest in a storage chest to maybe re-visist or maybe not. I hope to get more input from Rob in March...and even get a lesson with Mark Baker sometime before that..maybe January. I'm delaying the M. Baker lesson because I've still got a lot of stuff I'm working at all at once and I need to quiet that a bit before seeing a new coach.

But when on a simple subject like the baker conversation with mike in the end instead of saying yeah your right i thought different, you say what ever you say mike. Then when i am just trying to offer an option, you say NONSENSE and never really acknowledge that MAYBE JUST MAYBE some one may have a point. Nobody is trying to discredit you and i have written before the sport needs more people like you. My point is that just because you write something in relation to a topic you can not expect people to think that is the end all be all. You know that one thing works for one and not another in this game in some instances. Again, exchanging of thoughts, ideas, information makes an educator in general tremendously more effective. I do wish you success with coaching and do believe you have the knowledge to help people in the sport.

This, in my opinion, is Rob's weakness...and I've told him that plainly...because I'm not really shy. He "listens"...but not with an "open mind". He and I had arguements...lots of arguements early on here at BB.com. And in many cases...most cases...I was wrong and he was right. Story of my life. BUT...there are ways to disagree and still come off like you respect someone's opinion...and there are ways to disagree where you sound "holier than thou". I've bowled with Mike many times...and spent many hours in his pro shop...and have bowled with Rob and had dinner with Rob, etc... Them not getting along...is NOT a shocker. They both have nearly identical personalities and have those personalities infused with so much knowledge...and both have real life businesses that are directly impacted by being at least perceived as "knowing a lot of stuff and being correct"...that very rarely...and I'm talking...never really....will you hear either utter the words, "I was wrong about that." Rob said it ONCE....I heard it! I can't remember what it was...but I heard it.

And the internet doesn't help. I argued with Rob, then met him in person, then we're friends and I subscibe to his website and see him for a lesson everytime I'm in Vegas. Me and Mike argue all the time on here...but in person...it's fine and we bowl in a league together and he's drilled 5 of the 6 balls I throw. Even Iceman...the FIRST to say that Aslan was bad for bowlingboards.com...my ARCH ENEMY...we meet...we bowl...he couldn't be a nicer guy. The internet makes EVERYONE sound like either sycophants or ***holes. There's very little in between. And I've lost friends over it. I've written stuff...meant it one way...it got interpreted another...and suddenly you have real world problems.

But as long as Rob and Mike have a vested interest in "being right"...I doubt they'll ever get past the "Grumpy Old Men" (relating to the movie, not their age) back and forths.

Quick Example:
My first coach...before Rob...was the WORST coach. He had HIS way...and that was the ONLY way. So if I went to him and said, "I think my thumbhole is too small because my thumb is getting stuck." He'd respond. "It's getting stuck because you're bending it in the hole, not because the hole is too tight." I'd respond, "Well, okay...but it's still sticking...what should I do?" He'd respond, "Throw it properly."

Now...he was right. Mike pointed this out as well durring the fittings for the balls. But him (the coach) being RIGHT...DIDN'T solve my problem. It was very hard to work with that coach because if I learned something online or from someone else...he wouldn't give me pros/cons...and let me experiment with it while still offering guidance. He'd simply get frustrated and say, "thats not what we worked on. Do it like this. Forget all that other poo. They don't know what they're talking about." And thats a common personality fault in a LOT of bowling coaches. I've gotten instruction from former PBAers currently in the hall of fame and the glaring personality issue is if you dare question...you get an answer like, "well, last time I checked...that guy isn't in the PBA Hall of Fame and I am." Bowling has a LOT of that. A lot of egos in bowling. A lot of guys not willing to bowl scratch or sport. A lot of guys that think their way is the ONLY way.