Aother discussion of Coaching...the non-Gifted side of bowling...

[Aslan]

This (skid-flip arsenal discussion in another thread) may be a disagreement I have with the current coach. And thats an interesting dynamic to coaching. As a student, you need to be accepting of the different points of view and techniques. Like I told Rob when I first got my lesson from him in early 2014...I'm a blank page...a sponge. You tell me what I need to do to get better...and I'll do it...even if it doesn't sound/feel right.

BUT...the other side of being a student is recognizing when things may not be working for YOU...and taking in other opinions as well...and molding that into a sort of hybrid game. And how long a student is willing to accept changes even if those changes don't feel right or are "steps back" in performance....is directly related to how much faith that student has in the instructor...and also how truly dedicated the student is to getting better.

I'm willing to change my "system". I'm willing to abandon the old spare shooting system/ball. I've improved my release...I now have a mini-'arsenal' if you will. But it's always something that is evolving.

- I LIKE the idea of Rob's to try a few distinctive lines to see what the lanes dictate rather than just play the track and adjust balls as you see changes.
- I like the concept of using a 'benchmark' ball rather than your most aggressive ball so that you have both "ball up" and "ball down" options.
- I also like Suzie Minshew's article and advice on varying loft/targets vertically (rather than just moving feet side to side) to get a slightly better pocket hit.
- And I have my "limits" in terms of just how big of an arsenal I'm willing to deal with.

So this is where...as the student...I have to get a little out of my comfort zone...and try a new couple strategies...and try to keep some things while abandoning others. See how that works...then in a few weeks go back for another lesson and see where we go from there. The key for coaches (I think) is not just credibility (which is vital and why sometimes those in forums or good players on your team or even house pro shop guys get frustrated when people don't listen to them)...but it's also at the end of the day about what WORKS. If I adopt a system or technique against what I "want" to do...and my average jumps up 15 pins and I roll a couple 300 games...then that will trump my pre-conceived ideas. But usually, change doesn't happen like that. A lot of times you gotta take some lumps while you learn...and thats when it gets tough and when the student starts going, "hmmm...I just don't know about this."

So in summary...having gotten instruction (not counting in the forums where I've gotten a lot of good feedback but the list would be much, much higher if I include each one of those people) from EIGHT coaches that are at LEAST USBC Bronze Level...my keys to finding and sticking with a good coach are (in order of importance):

1) RESULTS. If a coach teaches me to walk backwards and I average 246...I walk backwards. If a Gold Level coach teaches me to tilt my head right and I can't bowl over 151...I ain't gonna do it indefinitely.

2) A coach's ability to change their advice based on what they see. And this is where Rob is at a bit of a disadvantage (for me) as are many "clinics". This takes going back to the same person over and over and over. But generally, if the coach wants to see me have a greater knee bend...and then that knee bend thing is causing all kinds of other stuff to go out of whack...I want a coach that is going to A) Recognize that...and B) Not be resistant to changing their advice to something that might work better. Many coaches lack this ability. They have a mold, and you need to fit into it...and if you can't...keep trying until you CAN.

3) Personality. Coaches have to be likeable and they have to at least SEEM to care whether the student gets better or not. They have to at least APPEAR to be invested. One thing about adult learners is they don't usually behave like children (or they think they don't) and they have little tolerance for being treated like children. Being too harsh, too critical, or 'mocking' of an adult student is usually a BAD idea if you want them to come back. If a student think the coach has a vested interest in their success...the student will have an inner sense of responsibility to try and "please" their coach by being a better student.

4) Credentials. Credentials are ALWAYS a plus. Whether subconsciously or consciously. And it's why so many bowlers try to "emulate" a high level bowler. They SEE something working...and understanding the laws of Physics and the Universe...they also understand that if they do it EXACTLY like that....they SHOULD get the same result. But I think a student who really wants to learn should take advice from anyone and everyone. But how much emphasis they give it...how seriously they take it...and how long they are willing to struggle with it...are usually linked to that coach's credentials.

5) Price. Obviously price is a factor. If it wasn't, EVERYONE would go to Mark Baker. Even people on the other side of the country...they'd just buy a first class ticket and fly in for a lesson...like, every other day. But price IS a factor. Fortunately in bowling...even PBA Pros don't charge THAT much for a lesson when compared to other sports like baseball or golf or hockey. Since PBAers aren't rolling in cash, they generally appreciate the extra income. So, for me, price isn't really an issue. I'd rather spend $50-$100 a month on lessons than on a new ball every month and I think I'll have better results. But sure, there are limits. I've yet to get that "one lesson" from Mark Baker...although it is a goal for 2015...because $75-$80 for an hour...ughhh...

So how bout everyone else?

Coaches that have opinions on students (ideal or otherwise)? Maybe you have your own list? Maybe the same list but in a different order?

[zdawg]

I've yet to get that "one lesson" from Mark Baker...although it is a goal for 2015...because $75-$80 for an hour...ughhh...

So how bout everyone else?

Coaches that have opinions on students (ideal or otherwise)? Maybe you have your own list? Maybe the same list but in a different order?

You should buy Baker's DVD, I've got it and it covers what he tries to do with his individual lessons (without obviously being tailored to each individual, still very good information IMO). For me, since I go see him every now and then, it provides me with an awesome refresher and reminds me of the stuff I need to work on (and also gives you a big picture overview as to how everything is related), AND most importantly the little things he mentions during the lesson that I forget (he talks rather FAST). Of course it may not help you if you're being coached differently by somebody else and it might just put more stuff in your head, I know you've been known to overthink things once in a blue moon

That said, I went to one other coach one time, a local guy that was very old school in his teaching methods. In fact, almost everything he taught me was scrapped by Baker and it wasn't until I learned that there was a distinct difference between old school bowling and the modern game that I understood the gigantic discrepancy in their coaching methods.

I typically don't seek out coaching very often, mainly because I stick with Baker - he knows me and what I need to work on and he only comes down to San Diego twice a month (and even then its North County San Diego which is at least a 45 minute drive from where I am). Also he's seen me progress from struggling in the 120's, to my current sticking point in the low 180's so in some sense he's invested in seeing me set the bar even higher and reach those goals which is a huge bonus with a coach.

My average has been steadily improving since early Spring, I'm up 40 pins since the end of last Winter season, and a little over 20 pins over my Summer average currently. Unfortunately due mainly to work, I just don't have the time to practice several times per week right now and I see virtually no value in going back to Baker until I've put the necessary amount of time and effort into applying what I've been taught so far which is another reason I wait so long in between lessons (and now with the DVD I can remember some of the things I've forgotten so we won't waste time working on those things again).

From my perspective coaching is invaluable if you want to reach the absolute limits of what your talent/ability can achieve, but its not magic by itself - you really have to understand and I think at least to some extent take a leap of faith if they are teaching you something that seems "odd" or your game initially struggles. I'm not sure I would be wiling to do this if I was jumping around to 2, 4, 6, 8 or more coaches per year as they're all going to differ in their methods. I strongly believe once you find somebody you click with, and they fulfill your checklist, you should stick with them as long as possible so they can help guide you as you set that bar higher and higher AND they have the benefit of knowing where you started and have a much better understanding overall.

Well, that's my two cents anyway, and I SWEAR I'm not a Mark Baker shill

CLIFF NOTES: Zdawg thinks coaching is helpful and he is a Mark Baker shill

[J Anderson]

I will comment on three of your points
2) A coach's ability to change their advice based on what they see. And this is where Rob is at a bit of a disadvantage (for me) as are many "clinics". This takes going back to the same person over and over and over. But generally, if the coach wants to see me have a greater knee bend...and then that knee bend thing is causing all kinds of other stuff to go out of whack...I want a coach that is going to A) Recognize that...and B) Not be resistant to changing their advice to something that might work better. Many coaches lack this ability. They have a mold, and you need to fit into it...and if you can't...keep trying until you CAN.

While almost all coaches will try to put beginners into the classic four step approach mold, the better coaches will work with you to bring out your strengths and minimize your weaknesses.

3) Personality. Coaches have to be likeable and they have to at least SEEM to care whether the student gets better or not. They have to at least APPEAR to be invested. One thing about adult learners is they don't usually behave like children (or they think they don't) and they have little tolerance for being treated like children. Being too harsh, too critical, or 'mocking' of an adult student is usually a BAD idea if you want them to come back. If a student think the coach has a vested interest in their success...the student will have an inner sense of responsibility to try and "please" their coach by being a better student.

First, being too harsh or critical of any student, adult or child, is always a bad idea.
Second, some personalities just don't work together. A particular coach may have great success with his or her other students, but the two of you just don't hit it off.

4) Credentials. Credentials are ALWAYS a plus. Whether subconsciously or consciously. And it's why so many bowlers try to "emulate" a high level bowler. They SEE something working...and understanding the laws of Physics and the Universe...they also understand that if they do it EXACTLY like that....they SHOULD get the same result. But I think a student who really wants to learn should take advice from anyone and everyone. But how much emphasis they give it...how seriously they take it...and how long they are willing to struggle with it...are usually linked to that coach's credentials.

People who are "gifted" usually don't make the best coaches or teachers. If you look at pro sports the best managers and coaches tend not to be former stars, but journeymen who had to work hard and really study the game to compete in the big leagues.
Yet in bowling, we often dismiss advice from good bowlers, just because they don't have a 230+ average.

[RobLV1]

I've lost count of how many 220+ bowlers who know nothing about coaching, screwing up bowlers games' by trying to help. There is a different skill set involved in coaching than in bowling. Coaches "see" and are trained to get to the root of a problem rather than addressing just the problem itself.

[dnhoffman]

I've lost count of how many 220+ bowlers who know nothing about coaching, screwing up bowlers games' by trying to help. There is a different skill set involved in coaching than in bowling. Coaches "see" and are trained to get to the root of a problem rather than addressing just the problem itself.

My average is only at around 216 right now, might need to edit your post!

[fortheloveofbowling]

Rob, I don't anyone was trying to insult coaches. Also, Rob was just saying someone like himself that has extensive training has the knowledge of all aspects of the game and can see the small things wrong. God knows we need more people willing to help the sport. I think what j anderson was getting at was that some coaches tend to want to change everything in a individuals game. I think sometimes coaches should work more with existing strengths that may not be text book and focus on the real problems in moderation. Bowling is such a feel game and that is never really talked about and nobody needs 10 different thoughts in their head while standing on the approach. Just my thoughts.

[Aslan]

Yeah, hopefully my post wasn't seen as critical of coaching. I mean, with all the coaching I seek and end up getting…I'm certainly not an "anti-coaching" guy. I just thought I'd put 5 of the important aspects and get opinions.

To what Rob said, I have seen an ADVANTAGE in coaches that are teachers more so than former pros. As hard as it is to argue with someone that has BEEN THERE….I find that true coaches are much more interested in the success of their students. I mean, if you're Norm Duke…you're concerned with bowling and bowling at the top of your game and when your next tournament is. The LAST thing on your mind the night before the WSOB is how well the senior you coached did at a local tournament that evening. But coaches….thats their THING…they are almost as interested and invested in their student's success as they are in their own success…because the two things are linked.

I think thats where Mark Baker turned a corner…when he stopped bowling competitively and focused on coaching. I think it can be hard to give your students the attention they need when it's just some side job while you work on your own game.

And I agree with Rob about 220+ bowlers that have zero teaching ability…you'll find these guys in nearly every house. Their problem is they really can only tell you what THEY do…they can't analyze your game and tell you what you might want to do…unless it's what THEY do. I experienced this when I tried to help coach a guy on my old team. I went through the Level 1 class for Youth Bowling but then I was standing there…watching a grown right-hander throw a back-up ball…and everything I learned went out the window. I couldn't really analyze his game…because he wasn't doing it right. Same thing with my pal Dennis. He is SO bad…so naturally BAD…that I just stand there with my mouth open and no words come out. Teaching itself is a subject. It takes years for many to master. I know lots of really smart people that are horrible teachers.

[vdubtx]

And I agree with Rob about 220+ bowlers that have zero teaching ability…you'll find these guys in nearly every house.

Absolutely agree with Rob on that point. I get approached by friends on the lanes weekly about what they should do because they are bowling bad etc. I can give some basic pointers, but in the end, I have no clue how to coach someone else. I know how to keep my game going, but to communicate what I have in my head about my own game is not gonna happen. I need coaching every once in a while too and I do seek it out.

[MICHAEL]

Absolutely agree with Rob on that point. I get approached by friends on the lanes weekly about what they should do because they are bowling bad etc. I can give some basic pointers, but in the end, I have no clue how to coach someone else. I know how to keep my game going, but to communicate what I have in my head about my own game is not gonna happen. I need coaching every once in a while too and I do seek it out.

GOOD POINT vdubtx!!! Pat Henderson, that Missouri Hall of fame bowler I am on a league with, is the same way! ONE hell of a bowler like yourself!
He was going to get into coaching, so I decided to give it a shot.

He like you, knows bowling, and all that is necessary to make the adjustments be it two different balls on two lanes, adjustments ect ect!!

We had two lessons but what it turned out being was, Pat and Ice bowling togerther 4 games and having a great time in the process! As far as coaching what it boiled down to was him making a comment like move so many boards to left or right, and that's basically it.
things I already knew. I thought lets do another lesson,,,, just incase I making judgment too soon!
We met the second time and bowled each other, he would roll a ball, I would roll a ball! The coaching consisted of giving me advice on where to
stand and what target. Same as the first lesson.

PAT i is ONE HELL OF A BOWLER,,, one of the finest, even at 60 now, but like you vdubtx, does not have the training to really be a coach, in my opinion.

Pat knows a HELL OF A LOT of things about bowing, that he uses to get those high scores on THS patterns. He does not do the Sports Patterns at all to my knowledge. But on house red pattern bowling maybe even blue and red, he is hard to beat in this area regardless of the age of his victims!



Anyone can be a Coach, but to be a GOOD, or even GREAT coach, it take more then just knowing HOW YOURSELF to bowl the Big scores. I actually think that a GREAT coach is not just someone with the knowledge, but someone with "THE GIFT" of teaching!

What is THE GIFT OF COACHING,,, its not just ONE thing, its a combinations of Many things, things that have been mentioned in this thread by many of you!



Its sort of like those few teachers you had in life that you NEVER FORGET,,, vs the many that you don't recall at all!
LOOK FOR THE GIFTED TEACHER, they are out there, and if it doesn't feel right, it probably isn't!

[MICHAEL]

GOOD POINT vdubtx!!! Pat Henderson, that Missouri Hall of fame bowler I am on a league with, is the same way! ONE hell of a bowler like yourself!
He was going to get into coaching, so I decided to give it a shot.

He like you, knows bowling, and all that is necessary to make the adjustments be it two different balls on two lanes, adjustments ect ect!!

We had two lessons but what it turned out being was, Pat and Ice bowling togerther 4 games and having a great time in the process! As far as coaching what it boiled down to was him making a comment like move so many boards to left or right, and that's basically it.
things I already knew. I thought lets do another lesson,,,, just incase I making judgment too soon!
We met the second time and bowled each other, he would roll a ball, I would roll a ball! The coaching consisted of giving me advice on where to
stand and what target. Same as the first lesson.

PAT i is ONE HELL OF A BOWLER,,, one of the finest, even at 60 now, but like you vdubtx, does not have the training to really be a coach, in my opinion.

Pat knows a HELL OF A LOT of things about bowing, that he uses to get those high scores on THS patterns. He does not do the Sports Patterns at all to my knowledge. But on house red pattern bowling maybe even blue and red, he is hard to beat in this area regardless of the age of his victims!



Anyone can be a Coach, but to be a GOOD, or even GREAT coach, it take more then just knowing HOW YOURSELF to bowl the Big scores. I actually think that a GREAT coach is not just someone with the knowledge, but someone with "THE GIFT" of teaching!

What is THE GIFT OF COACHING,,, its not just ONE thing, its a combinations of Many things, things that have been mentioned in this thread by many of you!



Its sort of like those few teachers you had in life that you NEVER FORGET,,, vs the many that you don't recall at all!
LOOK FOR THE GIFTED TEACHER, they are out there, and if it doesn't feel right, it probably isn't!

Could Pat be a great coach with training, ,,,,,, Maybe,,,, I do know he is one hell of a bowler, but Coaching is a heck of a lot more then just being outstanding at a sport yourself!

I know Pat comes here on this site occasionally, and my thoughts on this subject are not intended to upset him.... lol,,, I enjoy bowling with, and knowing him as a bowling friend! My opinion on what a coach is all about are just that,,, MY OPINION!

But then I have flown with the eagles!!!,,,,, I had ONE coaching lesson with Big Rob from Vegas!!! Came home and rolled a 741 series using the two major things he pointed out I needed to change! I GREAT coach has the eye of an EAGLE!!