Spinner Quest continues, now about those two differing sized round spots on the ball

[samdasham]

One is the CG I get that, but what is the other one I think maybe referred to as the pin and how do they relate to the position of the core and conventional layout of the grip?

I need to understand that before I can manipulate for my spinner approach.

Let us take a peek at the DV8 Endless Nightmare core.

http://www.bowlingball.com/products/...nightmare.html

I see a little pin & a bigger pin. I'll take a shot in the dark and speculate the larger pin is CG. If so or not what is the skinnier pin and what are both pins relationship to a given std layout?

If the larger pin is CG wouldn't I be able to have a grip drilled w/that pin centered in my grip or 180* on the other side and evah so roughly in my CCW spin maintain the center of gravity within the spinning core as I'm hurling w/holes looking back at me in spinner style?

Pardon my ignorance as I attempt to understand these markers in order to guesstamate/convert what might work for me. I realize that even if I'm spinning on either end of the CG that the ball will display differing characteristics dependent on the shape/placement of the core and which end is drilled.

[bowl1820]

One is the CG I get that, but what is the other one I think maybe referred to as the pin and how do they relate to the position of the core and conventional layout of the grip?

I need to understand that before I can manipulate for my spinner approach.

Let us take a peek at the DV8 Endless Nightmare core.

The DV8 Endless Nightmare core.


The large rod is the "PIN" and locates the top of the core.

The small rod is the "Mass Bias" (MB)

The CG is located between the Pin & MB and would appear as a pin prick on the surface of the ball with a small DV8 stamped on it. (something like this DV.8) The location will vary slightly from ball to ball.

The CG is not shown in the picture.

[samdasham]

The large rod is the "PIN" and locates the top of the core.

The small rod is the "Mass Bias" (MB)

The CG is located between the Pin & MB and would appear as a pin prick on the surface of the ball with a small DV8 stamped on it. (something like this DV.8) The location will vary slightly from ball to ball.

The CG is not shown in the picture.

Well doggies I was way off the mark. Would the mass bias depict more or less the CG of the core? Is it something as a dividing line for the core or the core & ball combined?

Would the CG be roughly in the middle of the two pins or is not that simple and depends more on the shape and placement of the core?

If I have a ball drilled where the CG is marked in relation to the axis of my straight wrist/forearm then wouldn't I evah so roughly be able to spin the ball on it's CG axis w/my CCW spin?

Thanks for the prior explanation.
ETA: Bear w/me as I try to absorb the various nuances of speed/weight/revs/tilt.

Would this statement be true?

Conventional bowlers throw through the middle of the lane, skid through oil to the drier outside where revs gain traction hooking the ball towards the pins, but before arrival the revs turn into a roll to power the ball through the pins.

[Mike White]

Well doggies I was way off the mark. Would the mass bias depict more or less the CG of the core? Is it something as a dividing line for the core or the core & ball combined?

Would the CG be roughly in the middle of the two pins or is not that simple and depends more on the shape and placement of the core?

If I have a ball drilled where the CG is marked in relation to the axis of my straight wrist/forearm then wouldn't I evah so roughly be able to spin the ball on it's CG axis w/my CCW spin?

Thanks for the prior explanation.
ETA: Bear w/me as I try to absorb the various nuances of speed/weight/revs/tilt.

Would this statement be true?

Conventional bowlers throw through the middle of the lane, skid through oil to the drier outside where revs gain traction hooking the ball towards the pins, but before arrival the revs turn into a roll to power the ball through the pins.

The Pin represents the axis that takes the least amount of energy to rotate the ball around.

The Mass Bias represents the axis that takes the most amount of energy to rotate the ball around.

The CG mark is just a point on the surface such that the true Center of Gravity of the ball is located directly between the center of the ball and the CG Mark.

The true center of gravity is located very close to the center of the ball.


These markings are based on before the ball is drilled, and some error occurs in the manufacturing process.


"but before arrival the revs turn into a roll to power the ball through the pins."

This part isn't quite right.

revs is a measure of how fast the ball is rotating.

There are two other factors related to making a ball roll.

There is Axis of Rotation, and Axis Tilt.

Think of the front tire on a bicycle.

The axle on the wheel is equivalent to the axis of the ball.

If you're riding the bike through heavy water (similar to oil on the lane) you can turn the handle bars, and the wheel will skid.

The angle difference between the direction the wheel is traveling, and the direction the wheel is pointing is the axis of rotation.

Axis of Rotation measured by the angle between the balls axis, and a line perpendicular to the balls path, but the #s are the same as the wheel abstraction.

If however you were the lean the bike towards the side, that new angle is considered axis tilt.

For a ball to roll, the axis of rotation has to become 0 degrees. i.e. wheel pointing in the same direction as it's traveling, or axis perpendicular to the path.

Rolling also requires the revs and tilt combination to match the speed of the ball properly.

Friction forces help to achieve that balance.

[samdasham]

Thanks Mike for taking the time to break it down where hopefully it will seep into the old noodle and perhaps steep long enough for me to embrace the understanding of bowling mechanics. I did some research on spinning and found an article or two on the RICO drilling. That as I understand is somewhat of a starting point for those right handers that would prefer to rotate the ball CCW w/suitcase release having the holes looking back at them.

Now I'm at a quandary of sorts as from reading I realize that I cannot spin the ball CCW enough, at least at 15lb 4 oz, to overcome 18mph at the pins. A large part of the enjoyment was throwing the ball hard straight at the pins. After several turkeys and a four bagger I was encouraged to take it to 'em. Any angle greater than 1.87* be dayumed.

I went to aiming at the second arrow-just inside and dependent upon house/oil I'm discovering, though no great discovery, that one only allows me a speed of 15. They oil every day and I bowl a few early. Even backed up in the right corner, w/old Brunswick reactive urethane ball circa '98, I can't spin the ball enough. At the other house the drier conditions allow me to perch in the same corner and achieve similar arc at 18. I'll try to maintain 15 on the dry lanes for 4-5 games the next time and see if I can obtain more noticeable arc.

I realize I'm limiting myself throwing spinner and I'm understanding one aspect of lighter balls that isn't based on deflection. They're easier to spin CCW w/forearm. Instead of conventional grip I'll try a modified fingertip and see if that helps me spin.


Anywho, The RICO drilling sounds promising and I'm sure I could perform better w/new ball. Especially if it was drilled for spinning style. I also noticed that on the lanes w/more oil my oil line was higher up the ball, closing in on the equator, about an inch from my grip. I guess the slicker surface allowed for a lot more tilt and missing the friction of the drier lanes prevented the ball from riding higher down the lane.

Thanks a bunch.

ETA:Before I found articles on the Rico drilling I was speculating the position of a core. When I spoke of CG I basically was referring to a spinning balance that would be achieved if a ball was drilled all the way through and rod was inserted. My thinking was my grip would line up w/that balance on the end that provided the most weight of the core. It seemed that would help induce flare if the ball tilted up enough. My other thought was perhaps w/weight on the other side of my grip that the ball would be more stable spinning w/weight low and maybe that would allow the ball to tilt properly as the weighted end would lead. Especially after seeing the high oil line from my last trip.

[Doghouse Reilly]

Looking at your profile it says your a 120 average bowler, you shouldn't be doing all this worrying about things like a "Rico layouts" etc.

You should go to the pro-shop, get him too watch you bowl some. Get fitted with a new ball and work on your physical game!

[samdasham]

Thanks for the suggestion.

Be that as it may I've been averaging around 25 games a week for several months. Eighty percent or so of that has been working on approach and throwing the ball straight and hard. The last few weeks I've tried to concentrate more on the CCW spin to 180* instead of a natural/given 90*.

How is a pro going to watch me throw a ball that wasn't drilled for my span and isn't drilled for a spinner and come up w/conclusion? I don't know or I wouldn't be here making inquiries. I have a lurking suspicion that if I, w/o significant knowledge, went to a pro that he's basically going to try to convert me to conventional style of bowling. Maybe I'm way off base.

However, since I'm committed to spinning the ball CCW from the right corner w/little arc it would seem to me that the best approach would be to buy a solid cover ball that hooks a lot and try a proven spinner drilling. As I understand that isn't limited to the Rico drilling, but it seems to be a good starting point.

I can throw the 15-4 oldie moldy hard, yet cannot put many revs on the ball. Maybe trying a fingertip grip will work the same for a spinner. Maybe not though I might try a 14 lb ball and see if I can get more spin.

I'll take a peek at the youtube video. Thanks for providing that along w/advice.

ETA: I'm not going to critique the gent's wandering rambling redundent delivery much though I will offer some of what I gleaned.
Paraphrasing from memory:

"... a 170 bowler doesn't need to know his lay-out & probably only needs a basic lay-out."

Agreed. I'm a spinner & I only need a basic layout for a spinner and through limited reading the Rico drilling appeared to fill the bill.

Am I reading the articles on the Rico drilling incorrectly? I'm wrong on a regular basis, it's what I do best, yet I thought the Rico drilling was a standard of sorts for a spinner.

Why wouldn't I wish to have a drilling designed for my style of delivery? Or better yet, why would I want a conventional drilling if I'm spinning the ball? It seems so counterproductive.

As well I do not begrudge using the old Brunswick w/conventional layout. It was free, I had the surface roughed up and the grip enlarged. It has served me well in conditioning muscles through repetition. I tend to think the span is on the small side and the grip offsets could be tweaked, but I've got no real complaints.

However, in spinning from the corner it becomes apparent that I need as much movement towards the pocket as can be mustered. I'll never see that 6* entry into the pocket and that's OK. As a product of the '50s I find spinning convenient and relatively easy to replicate within my skill level.

I feel a mid-range performance ball 14-15 lbs w/lot of hook drilled for my style, my span would provide the best chance for improvement to my game at this juncture. Along w/peace of mind that the equipment/fit is up to snuff. From that point I'll have to look within for progress/answers.

[samdasham]

Upon further examination it appears that the reference to spinning combined w/RICO drilling isn't the same spinning. No big whoop. I bowled 25 games yesterday for a combined average of 120[high was 160]. Besides pulling on the rear teat I'm consistent w/K-mart Brunswick.

I've ordered two same manufacturer/different model balls, 15/16 lb, so perhaps I'll pick up a few pins down the road. Thanks for all the help gents.

ETA: I've finally realized that my style is nothing more than a traditional grip w/very limited spin/revs virtually no axis w/ball tilted back on oily lanes as if in a recliner. So, I suppose when the new balls arrive it will not matter how they are drilled for any particular strength/weakness save proper span w/snug fit. I've no interest in fingertip inserts though I would wish to limit the length of the drillings in order to match my style whilst providing me digit tips feel/contact w/ball.