General Annoyances with High Rev ballers...a mini rant/observation

[Hobbit]

How did they feel about the handicap system changing on their account?

Also how are they going this season with that system in place?

[zdawg]

In our leagues that some of the regionals bowl in they actually get negative handicap. Ours is 90% of 230, so if they are 240 average they are giving pins back. Some got mad and quit the first week after that rule got pushed through a vote.

So here's an honest question (not meant to be smartass or derogatory), if they bowl in the PBA regional events, and average 240+ on THS, why are they even wasting their time with handicap leagues? If they're just doing it for fun then I don't understand why they would get mad about the rule change, if anything that would provide a better challenge, no?

On the other hand I know some areas don't have many options, so if that's the only league available I guess I could understand that, just wondering.

[RobLV1]

In most cases handicap leagues are all bowlers only options. Even "scratch" leagues are really "almost scratch" where there is still a difference in team handicap. On one hand, higher average bowlers always have a mathematical advantage over lower average bowlers where the handicap difference is less than 100%. On the other hand, the lower average bowlers are often more motivated to beat the high average guys resulting in the high average bowlers seemingly walking around with targets on their backs. Personally, I really love having the opportunity to bowl against great bowlers, as it gives me a chance to see up close and personal what makes them so good. As long as the league in which they bowl is not a really low average recreational league, I really haven't seen that they dominate at all.

[zdawg]

In most cases handicap leagues are all bowlers only options. Even "scratch" leagues are really "almost scratch" where there is still a difference in team handicap. On one hand, higher average bowlers always have a mathematical advantage over lower average bowlers where the handicap difference is less than 100%. On the other hand, the lower average bowlers are often more motivated to beat the high average guys resulting in the high average bowlers seemingly walking around with targets on their backs. Personally, I really love having the opportunity to bowl against great bowlers, as it gives me a chance to see up close and personal what makes them so good. As long as the league in which they bowl is not a really low average recreational league, I really haven't seen that they dominate at all.

Thanks for the info Rob. I suppose it makes sense, you have more recreational bowlers in leagues than PBA regional (or pro) competitors hence more handicap leagues.

[RobLV1]

I'm actually bowling in an almost scratch league this fall, and I really enjoy the format. It works like this: There are four-man (or woman) teams with a maxiumum entering average of 865, based on the last year's league for bowlers who bowled, or book averages for bowlers who didn't bowl the previous year. As a requirement, each team lineup is set up with the lowest average bowler bowling leadoff, second low second, etc., with the highest average on the team being the anchor man. We bowl three games, with five possible points per game, with another five for totals. The individual points are determined man-to-man, scratch. The man-to-man totals are also scratch. The team totals for each game as well as series are based on handicap, though in all honesty, the handicap difference is usually really very little based on the fact that teams choose players to get their entering average as close to 865 as possible.

As the low guy on the team (currently at 199), I lead off, and usually bowl others who range from 180 to 210 in average. While on paper this gives me an advantage some of the time and puts me at a disadvantage other times, it is usually pretty evenly matched. The nice thing about this format, is that while there are several PBA National and Regional players in the league (Jake Peters, David Haynes, and Andrew Graff just to name a few), it makes it very even because of the format. When we bowl against a team with a very high average anchor man, the lead off guy will usually have a lower average.

I must say that it's a lot of fun bowling with such great bowlers!

[epiepenburg]

How did they feel about the handicap system changing on their account?

Also how are they going this season with that system in place?

They are in 4th out of 12 the last time I looked. They all are there for fun anyway.

[epiepenburg]

In most cases handicap leagues are all bowlers only options. Even "scratch" leagues are really "almost scratch" where there is still a difference in team handicap. On one hand, higher average bowlers always have a mathematical advantage over lower average bowlers where the handicap difference is less than 100%. On the other hand, the lower average bowlers are often more motivated to beat the high average guys resulting in the high average bowlers seemingly walking around with targets on their backs. Personally, I really love having the opportunity to bowl against great bowlers, as it gives me a chance to see up close and personal what makes them so good. As long as the league in which they bowl is not a really low average recreational league, I really haven't seen that they dominate at all.

I agree, it makes the rest of us want to bowl better. One of the guys throws for DV8 which is the equipment I use. When I got my thug! I didn't care for it at first. The first night I threw it was in league (probably a mistake), but he happened to be bowling on the next pair. He encouraged me to keep throwing the ball versus switching, watched me throw a couple shots, and where I should move. A week later with the move made, I threw a 300 with the ball.

I hope the guys stay in the league, they are fun to watch. They all have their nights, I beat them scratch bowling in one of the games on the first night we played them. I threw a 244 and beat their best score by a few pins that game.

[Aslan]

So here's an honest question (not meant to be smartass or derogatory), if they bowl in the PBA regional events, and average 240+ on THS, why are they even wasting their time with handicap leagues? If they're just doing it for fun then I don't understand why they would get mad about the rule change, if anything that would provide a better challenge, no?

On the other hand I know some areas don't have many options, so if that's the only league available I guess I could understand that, just wondering.

Thats a completely legitimate question. I thought the same thing.

I mean, handicap is supposed to adjust for that...but still....would I be allowed to be on an 8th grade basketball team if I spot the other team 12 points?

But...I've seen it in golf. Lots of guys that at one point got good enough to get a PGA card or something like that...then they don't fare well at that level and start dominating in golf leagues and local tournaments. As long as there's handicap involved, it evens the playing field.

Hell, I used to go on an annual golf outing and I actually won the annual trophy one year. There were at least 3 scratch golfers in the outing that I beat. But when they calculate your handicap based on shooting in the 140s (for 18)...and then in the championship round you somehow have the best day of golf you've ever had....there's just no way for even a great golfer to beat you...even though scratch they probably beat me by 20 strokes.

[Aslan]

I'm actually bowling in an almost scratch league this fall, and I really enjoy the format. It works like this: There are four-man (or woman) teams with a maxiumum entering average of 865, based on the last year's league for bowlers who bowled, or book averages for bowlers who didn't bowl the previous year. As a requirement, each team lineup is set up with the lowest average bowler bowling leadoff, second low second, etc., with the highest average on the team being the anchor man. We bowl three games, with five possible points per game, with another five for totals. The individual points are determined man-to-man, scratch. The man-to-man totals are also scratch. The team totals for each game as well as series are based on handicap, though in all honesty, the handicap difference is usually really very little based on the fact that teams choose players to get their entering average as close to 865 as possible.

That sounds very interesting in terms of format.

I'm thinking of trying to start a sport league at my current center. There's been 'some' interest from the pro shop guy and some guys he talked to...I just don't know if there'd be ENOUGH interest to start a league. The center will likely want at least 12 teams or 48 participants. And thats a tall order. In my current sport league at a different center, I think we only have like 9 teams and 26 participants...and that league has been around for awhile.

But if I borrowed THAT format...lets say make it a 3-man team with a cap at 560 based on their book averages...lowest average player always bowls first, highest average always bowls last...man-to-man scratch, team handicap...4 games...that would be like 17 points available per week? (3 points per game, 1 point handicap game total per game...x 4 games = 4 x 4 = 16...then a point for handicap total) Did I calculate that right for a 3-man team?

Do players change position if their handicaps go up and down? What if you are #2 with a starting average of 183 and your leadoff person has a 179. But as the season progresses...your leadoff bowler's average goes above your #2 bowler? Do they automatically switch positions? What if your team comes in with THIS:

Player 1: 178
Player 2: 190
Player 3: 190

Total = 558

By the end of the season their averages are:
Player 1 = 183
Player 2 = 195
Player 3 = 191

Total = 569

Is that team forced to disband because they are over the 560 limit? If so, I'd be tempted to add in a clause that established teams can stay together even if their team exceeds 560...it would amost be an incentive that keeps the league strong and teams coming back...because if a team member leaves...you might have to find a 160 average bowler to get your team back under 560. Of course, that could also lead to some real sandbagging issues if a team with a few 220 average bowlers...tank a season and get a 185 book...all get in the league...then start bowling in the 220s...and there's no way to get rid of them at that poing even though they as a team are at 660 instead of 560.

I mean, I like bowling with Mike W. in the Sunday morning sport shot league out in Norco...it's just that 8AM on a Sunday...kinda rough...and the league just doesn't have a huge draw given that it's in the Citrus Belt USBC. A simliar league...in Orange County...I think would have a better draw...but I'd like to see a change that makes the leagues capped at 560...cuz right now in our sport league...Mike is actually better off if me and the other person don't even show up because a vacant person gets you 160 where as I'm carrying a 152 (sport). And the same team seems to always win the league...because they have 2 guys with 200+ sport averages and a guy with a 190s sport average...and a 200 average sub. And if the league was in Orange County...where there are more higher average bowlers (in terms of volume...there are just simply many, many more bowlers in the pool)...I could see teams getting formed where they'd be nearly unbeatable without a that limit.

Do they give you a league sheet that has all the rules and details? If so, could you do me a favor and scan/send it to me? I could copy it, make some slight changes, and use it for the league I want to propose.

Granted....it'll be just my luck that it would actually take off and become a cool league...and then I end up having to move to Iowa in a year or so and can't participate. It'd be harder to start a league that in a more rural type of area/state. Starting it in Orange County makes a lot of sense because you're drawing from 3 different nearby USBCs and a huge population of bowlers. Starting one in some city in Iowa...even if you're near Des Moines...it could be tough to get enough people interested.

[Mike White]

In our leagues that some of the regionals bowl in they actually get negative handicap. Ours is 90% of 230, so if they are 240 average they are giving pins back. Some got mad and quit the first week after that rule got pushed through a vote.

Were they mad because of the negative number?

How about if the rule just changed to 90% of 250, that way nobody gets negative pins.

Sounds to me like they realized the rule (90% of 230 with no negative pins) was to their advantage, and they didn't like losing that advantage.