Timing/Speed comment by Randy Pedersen
So on this past Sunday's PBA broadcast Randy Pedersen did a quick segment on how to increase your ball speed by introducing early timing (timing in the traditional spot not Mark Baker's timing spot), and thus quicker feet/more speed to the line. He used Tommy Jones as his example. Basically his point was Tommy starts his swing early, then "catches" up with quick feet and thus increases overall ball speed (paraphrasing here).
I was wondering if there was some merit to what he was talking about, I know I've read posts that state Randy Pedersen doesn't know what he's talking about but I'd guess he knows more than maybe he lets on when he's trying to be a "personality" on his broadcasts.
I've heard a similar comment that once you get good timing…your feet will sort of "adjust" to your timing being slightly off; slow down or speed up.
But…any time anyone asks if X is right when Mark Baker teaches Y…the answer is usually "no". Baker may not have the competitive ability he once had…but from what I've heard and seen of his teaching ability…it's 2nd to none. It's why he can charge double what most other PBA pros charge for private lessons and STILL be booked solid nearly every day.
In Bag: (: .) Motiv Trident Odyssey; (: .) Hammer Scorpion Sting; (: .) Brunswick Endeavor; (: .) Radical Outer Limits Pearl; (: .) Ebonite Maxim
USBC#: 8259-59071; USBC Sanctioned Average = 175; Lifetime Average = 171;
Ball Speed: 14.7mph; Rev. Rate: 240rpm || High Game (sanc.) = 300 (268); High Series (sanc.) = 725 (720); Clean Games: 181
Smokey this is not 'Nam', this is bowling. There are rules. Proud two-time winner of a bowlingboards.com weekly ball give-away!
Nothing wrong with Randy's recommended technique.....early timing and increased footwork pace leads to a faster overall tempo and can lead to increased ball speed.....getting the feet moving swiftly so long as balance is not sacrificed is one way to pick up ball speed.....some coaches advocate holding the ball higher in the set up to gain a long swing arc and others advocate holding the ball lower to get the ball into the backswing swiftly and quickly so the feet move to catch up with the swing to gain more overall speed.....one common key with any attempted technique to increase speed is to accelerate the forward swing aggressively and smoothly.....
Comparing Mark's and Randy's tips can be tricky because Randy has to give a general tip while on the air (in this case his tip was pointed to a pro bowler level player) while Mark coaches bowlers of a wide range of skill levels and uses speed technique variations based on the athletic ability, age, strength, etc. of a given bowler.....Mark is a coach now by occupation whereas Randy does not give specific tips to specific bowlers while on the air......I heard Randy is a good coach when making clinic appearances......you cannot win 13 titles, a major championship, a senior title, and watch the best in the business every week in person under the gun of PBA competition without knowing some things about the game.....
Best thing for any bowler is find experts, certified coaches, or pro's like Mark and Randy and have them evaluate your game with respect to picking up ball speed, or any area of your game, if you have hopes of improvement....that's my take on this matter....thanks....
It's not so much that they're in disagreement (although I'll ask him next time I see him), Mark just looks at the timing spot completely differently than most. I haven't had a lesson in quite a while, and gotta figure out how to schedule it now that I work 1000 hours a weekOriginally Posted by Aslan
I did go to a local guy a few times back when I first started out, and the first time I went to see Mark he basically "redid" everything that guy taught me - although in the local guy's defense, he was teaching me more of an oldschool "traditional" style, and at the time I didn't know the difference.
Yeah absolutely, it's about time for me to give Mark a call again its been quite a while. Since he coaches Tommy Jones too from time to time, I'm gonna ask him and see what his take is on it, but I suspect they might not be in disagreement.
I've gotten instruction, either formal or informal, paid or unpaid, from 8 different coaches including Mark. All of them had at least a USBC Bronze level certification. 4 of them were former PBA pros and 1 of them still is. And that doesn't include internet help/advice from anyone and everyone.
I always looked at it that the more input you get...like a sponge....you just soak it all in. Some of it is going to stick...some of it is going to work...some if it is not going to work. The good coaches usually stand out as the ones that try to teach you the "right" way...but are willing to bend a little to maximize what you're already doing well and abandon some of the things/ideas that are obviously NOT working well. Early on, it WAS frustrating...without a doubt...to get told one thing by one person then get told something completely different from someone else. It's why I don't really go to Mark's Saturday clinic much anymore...because all of the coaches that roam around and watch you...they don't even seem to agree with each OTHER on how I should do things. It's confusing.
But once I hit a certain level of basic understanding/knowledge...I decided to stick with one coach and go back every few weeks or so. I still try to get a lesson from Rob M. as well when I'm in Vegas...but it's hard to make significant changes to my game when you're getting lessons twice a year. Having a coach to see on a regular basis means I can try things...see how they work...and then adjust accordingly and maybe try something else. It's not "all or nothing" where if something works I stick to it and if it doesn't I go back to my old way. We're able to "tweak" things one way or the other.
The hardest thing, in my opinion, about coaching from a student's perspective is when you have an instructor...many of which in this area have PBA level background...USBC championships...even PBA Hall of Fame plaques on their walls...and it's really hard when they suggest something and it doesn't work...to go back to them and say it's not working and you'd like to go a different direction. It's like getting a lesson from Jesus on how the World was created and then going back and saying you kinda want to stick with the geology idea that you originally believed in. You feel like you're insulting their abilities or something.
And dealing with people at that high level...there's a certain level of arrogance that goes with their acheivement. Some of them will flat out tell you that "so and so doesn't know ***t, how many titles have THEY won!?" And it's hard to argue with that logic. But, to play Devil's advocate...being great at something doesn't mean you can teach it. Teaching in and of itself is a skill. I brought my daughter to my coach for lessons...not because I don't have Level I Youth bowling knowledge...but because I suck as a teacher. I get too frustrated.
In our local youth league, several of the coaches who work the after league and Wednesday afternoon clinics have started sharing via e-mail what they have been working on with particular kids. That way on Saturday morning, the rest of us can reinforce the instruction instead of accidentally contradicting it.
If you look at other professional sports, the star players almost never become outstanding managers or head coaches. Part of this may be because they have no need to earn any more money. I think the reason is more that they have a "gift" for understanding the game. They don't have to work as hard as the second string guys who have to study the entire game to maintain their value as major league players.
John
I think he is right in that it works for Tommy Jones and those among us who respond the same way to that sort of change. - He has to be simple and general.
As the tv disclaimer goes - you results may vary.
I live by three simples rules:
1. Don't ever ask about my business
2. Never discuss business at the table
3. Don't ever side with anyone against the family
Even at my most recent practice; I was struggling and a pro shop guy came over and started giving me advice...but one piece of advice was a shorter, hinge style push-away. Well, MY coach and I have been working on a LONGER style pushaway to fix a couple issues I was having with timing and release. So the easy answer is...sorry pro shop guy...but I gotta do it this way. EXCEPT...he was sharing knowledge given to HIM by Norm Duke. So I can't just discount it as some bowler with his own style...not if it's coming from one of the 5 best in the sport.
So...it's still a struggle...especially when I'm struggling...but the way I look at it...if I'm paying someone $35-$50 for a lesson...and they tell me to do something...I'm gonna stick with it and try to get it to work. I'm not going to do it once or twice until some random guy tells me I should throw differently. Now, if I get to the point where I'm not improving...and the coach's fixes aren't working...then it's time to invest in another coach. But as long as I pay for advice and a person is gracious enough to provide it...I feel like I at least owe them the respect to give it an honest try.
In Bag: (: .) Motiv Trident Odyssey; (: .) Hammer Scorpion Sting; (: .) Brunswick Endeavor; (: .) Radical Outer Limits Pearl; (: .) Ebonite Maxim
USBC#: 8259-59071; USBC Sanctioned Average = 175; Lifetime Average = 171;
Ball Speed: 14.7mph; Rev. Rate: 240rpm || High Game (sanc.) = 300 (268); High Series (sanc.) = 725 (720); Clean Games: 181
Smokey this is not 'Nam', this is bowling. There are rules. Proud two-time winner of a bowlingboards.com weekly ball give-away!
It is always a good idea to ask what the reason is for the instruction and the change it will have in your game. As with the longer push away a lot of people feel that it tends to encourage increased grip pressure throughout the swing and a tendency to grab the ball but keeps your feet at a slower pace. The hinged or shorter push away usually increases foot and ball speed as it places the ball in to the swing earlier but tends to provide a smoother overall free swing. It depends on the coach i guess but the main thing with instruction is asking questions to understand what you are trying to accomplish.
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