Can these traits be counter-productive to scoring?

[bowl1820]

versatility, accuracy, power, repeatability and knowledge

If you've been following the thread let's talk about averages part of it mentions a article by Joe Slowinski and his idea for a "International Bowling Skill Score Number" which would be based on measurements of a bowler's accuracy, versatility, repeatability and power.

You can read a copy here Click Here For Article

In that thread it was suggested that for general league play, all of the above traits can actually be counter-productive to scoring.

So the question is how can "versatility, accuracy, power, repeatability and knowledge" be counter productive in league play?

[Iceman]

This sounds complicated to compute. Is there any software that can tie into a center's automatic scoring? It would be tough for each person to record stats as they bowl each night. I can see people adapting this though - it would be a progress level of your overall game.

Or just a package that can track it?

[bowl1820]

This sounds complicated to compute. Is there any software that can tie into a center's automatic scoring? It would be tough for each person to record stats as they bowl each night. I can see people adapting this though - it would be a progress level of your overall game.
Or just a package that can track it?

In regards to what is in slowinski's article. That is not something you would do on or during a league.Also it is not something to replace averages, its a type of bowler ranking system. Also in the article it tells about the equipment/software to measure these things.

[JAnderson]

Bowl1820 - thanks for starting another thread. I'll give it my bast effort.

The original discussion was wrapped around rating a bowler based on each of these traits. One of my points in the other thread was that these traits in and of themselves don't guarantee score. In fact, they can be counter-productive to it.

Accuracy

Easy conditions allow the bowler to make big mistakes and still have a good (scoring) result. Very accurate bowlers tend to make much smaller mistakes. On "house shots", you rarely see accurate bowlers cross over to the "wrong" side of the head pin or have a shot come up "light" in the pocket for mixer hits. That's why we call them accurate. Bowlers that send the ball all over the place will often out score the accurate bowlers because the "wrong" side hits carry for the grossly inaccurate bowler while the small mistakes that leave corner pins affect the accurate bowler. Sure, this isn't all the time, but consider a slower-speed, accurate stroker on an easy condition versus a high-speed, high-rev inaccurate bowler on the same easy condition. The latter often scores better because of carry alone.

Power

High-speed, high-rev isn't always the answer, especially when over-under conditions prevail. The high-speed tends to accentuate the under while the high-rev accentuates the over. It depends more on tilt and rotation against the degree of over-under. A "power" bowler who produces more forward roll will have more success on over under (earlier hook in the "under" and more forward roll than hook in the "over") while more side roll and tilt when over/under isn't present (later, less hook missing in, more hook when missing out). Consider long, heavy sport patterns. Early roll and soft speed is the way to success. Early roll and soft speed typically isn't associated with "power" bowling.

Repeatability

This is tied closely with the points made for accuracy, but add in the component of how quickly lane conditions break down during league play. That can change from house to house. There's an 80-year old at one of the local houses who can repeat the same shot all day long. He's amazing. However, he never moves his feet or target, so if the lane conditions aren't conducive to his spot, he's capable of putting up 120's all day. Remember though, his repeatability is outstanding.

Knowledge

Too much knowledge can lead to over-thinking. We've all seen this happen on TV. I've even heard Walter Ray Williams admit to over-thinking in a situation. I'm definitely guilty of this from time to time and I'm not even the most knowledgeable of bowlers.

Versatility

This is probably the most difficult to explain which is why I've saved it for last. It does tie in with the knowledge and over-thinking. Sometimes it is difficult to get a job done when you simply have too many tools to choose from. I witnessed a young man who was simply amazing in the number of different things he could do to a bowling ball: two-handed, no-thumb, with thumb, extra finger-hole, no extra-finger hole, slow, fast, spin, just about anything. He doesn't have the knowledge, accuracy, or repeatability to take advantage of it. He averages about 140 the last time I checked, mostly because he's so busy being "versatile".

[bowl1820]

Bowl1820 - thanks for starting another thread. I'll give it my bast effort.
The original discussion was wrapped around rating a bowler based on each of these traits. One of my points in the other thread was that these traits in and of themselves don't guarantee score. In fact, they can be counter-productive to it.

In the original thread :
I'm sorry if I gave the impression that I was wrapping the discussion around the "Slowinski's article on the IBSSN number" I didn't mean it to be.

It was meant to focus on ways of possibly changing how averages are figured and/or used to calculate handicap. Since many feel that as their done now,they don't portray the bowler's true skill level.

I used Slowinski's article just as a springboard for the discussion to get it started. As example of a type ranking system that could possibly be used in conjunction with average's, in some way to produce a more accurate portrayal of the bowler's ability. But not as the main focus of the discussion.

Now this thread I'll say will focus on discussion of the Slowinski article.

For those who haven't read it here's a link to that article.
Click Here

[bowl1820]

Accuracy

Easy conditions allow the bowler to make big mistakes and still have a good (scoring) result. Very accurate bowlers tend to make much smaller mistakes. On "house shots", you rarely see accurate bowlers cross over to the "wrong" side of the head pin or have a shot come up "light" in the pocket for mixer hits. That's why we call them accurate. Bowlers that send the ball all over the place will often out score the accurate bowlers because the "wrong" side hits carry for the grossly inaccurate bowler while the small mistakes that leave corner pins affect the accurate bowler. Sure, this isn't all the time, but consider a slower-speed, accurate stroker on an easy condition versus a high-speed, high-rev inaccurate bowler on the same easy condition. The latter often scores better because of carry alone.

I think your equating luck with skill here. Crossovers, light mixer hit's that carry strike's are mostly luck and in the long run can't be depended upon all the time. as you said "this isn't all the time". Where as you can depend on accuracy, when used with the other traits to score well in the long run.

The slower-speed, accurate stroker may not be scoring well, but it's not because he is accurate. If he would make the correct adjustments in his game he should score better or at least just as well as the other. this is where versatility can help also.

Where as the high-speed, high-rev inaccurate bowler is just depending on basically power and conditions for his scoring.

Also as for the accuracy measurement in the article. They're based on hitting targets on the lane plus percentage of pocket hit's and spare conversions.Crossovers, light mixers are not Pocket hits. and everyone would be measured on the same conditions.the assessment should be conducted on two
lane conditions, short and long, that have a 1-to-1 ratio: 34 feet and 45 feet.

Power

High-speed, high-rev isn't always the answer, especially when over-under conditions prevail. The high-speed tends to accentuate the under while the high-rev accentuates the over. It depends more on tilt and rotation against the degree of over-under. A "power" bowler who produces more forward roll will have more success on over under (earlier hook in the "under" and more forward roll than hook in the "over") while more side roll and tilt when over/under isn't present (later, less hook missing in, more hook when missing out). Consider long, heavy sport patterns. Early roll and soft speed is the way to success. Early roll and soft speed typically isn't associated with "power" bowling.

Here we are getting into how terms are used. Power how it's used in the article is a measurement of the bowler's ball speed and rev rate at release. Not whether they are a "POWER" bowler or how different variations of ball release and speed react on different conditions.

Repeatability

This is tied closely with the points made for accuracy, but add in the component of how quickly lane conditions break down during league play. That can change from house to house. There's an 80-year old at one of the local houses who can repeat the same shot all day long. He's amazing. However, he never moves his feet or target, so if the lane conditions aren't conducive to his spot, he's capable of putting up 120's all day. Remember though, his repeatability is outstanding.

Again in the article" Repeatability" is a measurement of "Entry angle into the pocket." and "Ball speed consistency."

You bring up how quickly lane conditions change that has to do with adjusting. Repeatability or consistency is what you use after that shot has been found.

Now the 80-year old may be throwing a consistent ball. But by not making adjustments he's not attempting to improve his score. He's just hoping the shot comes around to him.Repeatability or consistency doesn't mean not adjusting to the situation. Really nothing here say's that repeatability is counter productive, the 80-year old mans consistency
kept him in play.

Knowledge

Too much knowledge can lead to over-thinking. We've all seen this happen on TV. I've even heard Walter Ray Williams admit to over-thinking in a situation. I'm definitely guilty of this from time to time and I'm not even the most knowledgeable of bowlers.

As for knowledge that's not figured into the IBSSN #. It was mentioned in the article because it was from where he got the idea for his system.this was from the World Tenpin Bowling Association’s
Technical Committee how they defined what characterized the they defined a skilled
bowler as one who possesses versatility, accuracy, power,
repeatability and knowledge.best bowler.

But in regards to what you said about "over-thinking". That is part of the mental aspect of the game, you can be knowledgeable and not "over think". Knowledge by itself doesn't cause over thinking.

Versatility

This is probably the most difficult to explain which is why I've saved it for last. It does tie in with the knowledge and over-thinking. Sometimes it is difficult to get a job done when you simply have too many tools to choose from. I witnessed a young man who was simply amazing in the number of different things he could do to a bowling ball: two-handed, no-thumb, with thumb, extra finger-hole, no extra-finger hole, slow, fast, spin, just about anything. He doesn't have the knowledge, accuracy, or repeatability to take advantage of it. He averages about 140 the last time I checked, mostly because he's so busy being "versatile".

In your example here Versatility was not what was counter productive to scoring, you said it yourself "it was the bowler's lack of knowledge, accuracy, or repeatability to take advantage of it".

That statement right there shows that versatility, accuracy, power, repeatability and knowledge are productive to scoring.

[JAnderson]

I'm sorry if I gave the impression that I was wrapping the discussion around the "Slowinski's article on the IBSSN number" I didn't mean it to be.

No worries.

I think you have a good understanding of my points. These traits, in unison will promote higher scoring in the long run and will generally separate the wheat from the chaff. I'm not debating that. I'm just referencing the microcosms that we sometimes find ourselves in when everything seems to be backwards. Consider just one piece:

I think your equating luck with skill here. Crossovers, light mixer hit's that carry strike's are mostly luck...Where as the high-speed, high-rev inaccurate bowler is just depending on basically power and conditions for his scoring.

There's always some luck involved with bowling. I consider myself lucky if I get a good rack 90% of the time
A high-speed, high-rev but otherwise inaccurate (comparably) approach is a valid approach to scoring when the conditions are wide-open/easy. If 99% of your bowling is league bowling on easy conditions, it's going to win in the carry-fest much of the time. That supports the argument that average is not a true indication of ability as well!

[Iceman]

when you 2 get this ironed out - can you post a summary post. I'm putting together a petition to see if any of the leagues will change for next year with options. I've been talking with the house owner and she's tired of all the complaining week after week, she would love to weed out, as long as the finances are still appropriate.

I want to present as many options as I can, most of the prior year meetings have been repetitious and no one stands up to submit changes, they are more worried about when you can bring in a sub (anytime other than 2 weeks before or after position rounds).

[bowl1820]

when you 2 get this ironed out - can you post a summary post. I'm putting together a petition to see if any of the leagues will change for next year with options. I've been talking with the house owner and she's tired of all the complaining week after week, she would love to weed out, as long as the finances are still appropriate.

I want to present as many options as I can, most of the prior year meetings have been repetitious and no one stands up to submit changes, they are more worried about when you can bring in a sub (anytime other than 2 weeks before or after position rounds).

If your referring making changes to average calculation not much you can do there. you have to follow the USBC guidelines on that.

Now league formats, point systems, handicap changes can be made. If the house and the league can agree work on it try changing the oil pattern used.

Most of the discussion here in this thread, is not going to produce something that could readily applied to a league right now.

[JAnderson]

Most of the discussion here in this thread, is not going to produce something that could readily applied to a league right now.

Agreed - it really wasn't meant to. We were discussing a rating system more in the other thread.

Iceman - really no summary. I don't think we're arguing, just comparing notes. Thought stimulation!