When sweeps leads to sandbagging…bad things happen...

[TonyInPortland]

It is against USBC rules to not try your best on every shot. I would not say it is you and your teammate's fault for not making your spares in the tenth. I am sure people do sandbag, but I have rarely noticed it, and would not tolerate it from my teammates!

[Aslan]

It is against USBC rules to not try your best on every shot. I would not say it is you and your teammate's fault for not making your spares in the tenth. I am sure people do sandbag, but I have rarely notice it, and would not tolerate it from my teammates!

I agree with ya Tony...but sandbagging happens more often than you think...especially out here (West) where so many leagues sweep in Vegas or Reno or Laughlin or some other venue. We literally have people in BOTH my Tuesday and Wednesday leagues that spend the entire year just simply not caring. I've bowled with and against high skilled bowlers that once they miss that first strike and lose a chance at a perfect game...they pretty much just don't care.

The guy that did that last season on Tuesdays took home over $1100 when we swept in Vegas. Now, I couldn't really criticize him too much for sandbagging...because in all honesty...he had the highest average in the league at 207 (harder conditions than most other centers around here). Kinda hard to call the highest average guy a sandbagger. And he's the most skilled bowler in the league...so it makes sense he'd win.

But the female bowler that won the last 2 years straight...is like the niece or grand-daughter of a former PBA bowler (I don't recall the name..or maybe she is just a liar) and she flat out said last season that, "...it doesn't matter, I don't really try until Vegas." Same thing...she'll try for a 300...then just keep things respectable...maybe win a sidepot or something...but if she gets off pace...her spare shooting would just be haphazard.

The reason I took responsibility (partial) for the loss of that game was simply that I'm used to organized team sports from high school and what you get taught (or at least used to) early on is that you win as a team and you lose as a team. If you didn't throw a perfect game...your lack of performance hurt the team just as much as his (the sandbagger's). Now...who is MOST to blame...the anchor. And a couple nights after that game...I was promoted to anchor and he's bowling 4th.

[Mike White]

I agree with ya Tony...but sandbagging happens more often than you think...especially out here (West) where so many leagues sweep in Vegas or Reno or Laughlin or some other venue. We literally have people in BOTH my Tuesday and Wednesday leagues that spend the entire year just simply not caring. I've bowled with and against high skilled bowlers that once they miss that first strike and lose a chance at a perfect game...they pretty much just don't care.

The guy that did that last season on Tuesdays took home over $1100 when we swept in Vegas. Now, I couldn't really criticize him too much for sandbagging...because in all honesty...he had the highest average in the league at 207 (harder conditions than most other centers around here). Kinda hard to call the highest average guy a sandbagger. And he's the most skilled bowler in the league...so it makes sense he'd win.

But the female bowler that won the last 2 years straight...is like the niece or grand-daughter of a former PBA bowler (I don't recall the name..or maybe she is just a liar) and she flat out said last season that, "...it doesn't matter, I don't really try until Vegas." Same thing...she'll try for a 300...then just keep things respectable...maybe win a sidepot or something...but if she gets off pace...her spare shooting would just be haphazard.

The reason I took responsibility (partial) for the loss of that game was simply that I'm used to organized team sports from high school and what you get taught (or at least used to) early on is that you win as a team and you lose as a team. If you didn't throw a perfect game...your lack of performance hurt the team just as much as his (the sandbagger's). Now...who is MOST to blame...the anchor. And a couple nights after that game...I was promoted to anchor and he's bowling 4th.

In those organized team sports from high school, did you ever have to spot the opponent some handicap in the form extra runs, baskets, touchdowns, etc?

It's the handicap, and winning is everything mentality that leads to sandbagging.

[TonyInPortland]

In those organized team sports from high school, did you ever have to spot the opponent some handicap in the form extra runs, baskets, touchdowns, etc?

It's the handicap, and winning is everything mentality that leads to sandbagging.

In high school the handicap is in the different divisions that keep schools of similar student body size in the same conference. Also, the freshman team has all freshmen, the JV team usually has underclassmen. I play USTA tennis and we have different levels (3.5, 4.0, 4.5, etc). Computer rankings determine whether or not you get bumped up or down at the end of a season and the exact formula that the computer uses is supposedly a secret, so it should be more difficult to sandbag. I have heard it is not based on matches won or lost, but instead on number of games won and lost, so if you lose 7-5, 7-5 it does not change your rating much, but if you lose 6-0, 6-1 it would.

You could probably still try to sandbag and I imagine people do, but you have to be careful. If you are up 5-1 in a set, and you let the other player or doubles team win a couple games, it could backfire on you and they could come back and win the match.

But bowling and golf are 2 sports where there is no actual interaction between the players, so the handicap system is used. If there were enough league bowlers, though, you could do it like tennis, and have one league with say, everyone below 150 average, another with 150-165, 166-180, 181-195, and 196+ or whatever. Then if your average goes up, you would be promoted to the next level. I think European soccer works this way. That way you are competing against bowlers of similar ability with no handicap.

Of course someone could still sandbag in order to stay at a lower level. I think our state tournament used to be this way, with A, B and C levels. Not sure, but I think they changed it to a handicap system.

[Aslan]

In those organized team sports from high school, did you ever have to spot the opponent some handicap in the form extra runs, baskets, touchdowns, etc?

It's the handicap, and winning is everything mentality that leads to sandbagging.

Don't disagree with that.

But the obvious solution is scratch leagues...but scratch leagues make the sport uncompetitive to new bowlers...thus nobody would start bowling.

So the only REAL solution are DIVISIONS.
Beginners 0-160 average = Handicap leagues, no-tap.
Intermediate 161-190 average = Handicap leagues, standard.
Advanced any average = Scratch leagues.

Beginning leagues cost $15/night, biggest prize is a trophy. Winning team automatically moved to intermediate league for following season.
Intermediate leagues, $20/night, Trophies and $$$ awarded...most an individual can win is $600. Winning team doesn't automatically move up, but all teams the following season use a combination of season average and sweeps score to determine entering average the following season.
Advanced leagues cost $25/night, no limit on money.

Nobody likes these ideas because it limits bowler mobility. For example. lets say Rob, Mike, Bill F., and Iceman all wanted to start a team (just because that would LITERALLY be the best entertainment I can imagine):
Mike averages 200. Iceman averages 214. Rob averages 189. Bill F averages (??) lets say 207.

In that scenario, all would have to be in a scratch league because they average > 190. Rob could play intermediate/handicap...but the rest of his team can't.

After one season...hypothetical:
MWhite averages 191, Iceman averages 194, Rob averages 169, BillF averages 201. Iceman wants to play on a different team, in Missouri, on wood lanes because he's better there...and he knows 3 guys on a handicap team that need a guy...but alas...Iceman CAN'T JOIN because he averages >190. MWhite gets upset at Rob (purely hypothetical of course) because he's dragging the team down with a 169, so Rob is forced to find a handicap team that needs a player. And BillF has two coworkers that he wants to bring in...but they both average in the 150-160 range and aren't even eligible to participate in anything but no-tap.

It makes a LOT of problems...because wives can't bowl with husbands and friends get split up, etc... But there really is no other, better option. As long as money is at stake in the Intermediate Handicap league...even just $600...people will try to sandbag. And in addition, some will be sandbagging just to stay in the league because they know if their average is >190 they automatically get bumped to scratch the following season.

It sounds complicated, but in reality is how virtually EVERY SPORT handles participation. There are baseball teams at multiple levels (tee ball, minor league, little league, travel league, high school, college, single-A, AA, AAA, International, and MLB). Each level has restrictions. I suck at basketball...but I can't join an 8th grade basketball team and pretend I'm Shaq...I'm too old. I also can't just 'decide' I want to play MLB baseball and sign up for a team. There is a progression that must be followed.

In bowling (and golf), you sign up for a league and are competing against a person who averages 94 and a person who is a PBA Regional player. If all leagues were scratch...no new bowler would stick around more than 1-3 seasons...because it would be an exercise in futility.

The best way I've seen it done (tournaments, leagues) is the annual BVL tournament. They have 6 divisions for women and 5 divisions for men. And youth girls get their own division and youth boys get their own division. The divisions are set up like this:

Classic: >194 average
A Division > 170 average
B division > 150 average
C Division > 130 average
D division > 119 average

Now, those aren't the exact ranges I don't think...I didn't look it up...but the point is...it's scratch...but everyone still has a good shot of winning because you're bowling against only those people at your skill level. The problem is with teams...trying to get entire teams of friends and family to fit all in one division is almost impossible.

I think the only thing a league can reasonably do to thwart sandbagging is use the average from sweeps to help calculate their starting average the next season. For example:
Lets say ZDawg decides to sandbag so he can enter the 3ABHMAVZSCI against me and MWhite. He sandbags an entire season and enters with a 137. He turns it on and averages 194 in the tournament (barely losing again to Aslan because Aslan OWNS MWhite and ZDawg in that tournament). Next time around...to stop ZDawg from being a little cheater...the league/tournament rules are changed and for the 4ABHMAVZSCI ZDawg can use is new 145 average...but it is given only 50% weight...the other 50% weight is given to the 194 he averaged last season...giving him an average of (194+147)/2 = 170.

So...lets see how this WOULD HAVE worked for the BHMAVZSCIs:

1st Annual:
Entering Averages: Aslan (166), MWhite (192), ZDawg (148).
Averages from Tournament: Aslan (151), MWhite (164), ZDawg (124)

So, for the 2nd annual (had we done it that way):
Entering Averages: Aslan (166), MWhite (199), ZDawg (152).

Had we used this system:
Aslan = (166 + 151)/2 = 158
MWhite = (199 + 164)/2 = 181
ZDawg = (152 + 124) = 138

So with that adjustment...I would have gotten 20 pins handicap (instead of 29).
MWhite would still have gotten 0 pins.
ZDawg would have gotten 38 pins instead of 42.

Would that have changed things?

Well, Aslan would still have dominated the youngsters with a 596 scratch + 60 pins of handicap for a 656.
But MWhite wouldn't have had to settle for a share of 2nd place...because his 621 scratch would have held up.
Meanwhile, ZDawg, getting less handicap, would not have been able to catch MWhite with ZDawg's 496 + only 114 = 610.

Bad example I guess since in the 1st Annual Tournament we all bowled so **** poor. But it WOULD be a factor for the 3rd Annual Event! Why?

Well, lets say we had the tournament early next year...and we'll just use my average for the example. My sanctioned average will likely be 180. Mikes likely at 200. That would give me 18 pins per game or 54 total. IF we use the revised system; (180+198)/2 = 189. MWhite would be at lets say (200 + 207)/2 = 203. 203-189 * 0.9 = 3 pins per game for a series total of only 9 pins difference.

If I roll a 600 series and Mike a 620...under the usual system I win by 34. If we use the revised system, I lose by 11.

But will there BE a 3rd Annual?? ZDawg has been AWOL for quite some time...can't have a 3rd Annual Billy Hardwick Memorial Aslan vs. ZDawg Southern California Invitational without a "ZDawg"!! Besides...who is Mike gonna finish ahead of if it's just me and him!??

[Tony]

Don't disagree with that.

But the obvious solution is scratch leagues...but scratch leagues make the sport uncompetitive to new bowlers...thus nobody would start bowling.


It sounds complicated, but in reality is how virtually EVERY SPORT handles participation. There are baseball teams at multiple levels (tee ball, minor league, little league, travel league, high school, college, single-A, AA, AAA, International, and MLB). Each level has restrictions. I suck at basketball...but I can't join an 8th grade basketball team and pretend I'm Shaq...I'm too old. I also can't just 'decide' I want to play MLB baseball and sign up for a team. There is a progression that must be followed.

Lets just wait a second before we decide that virtually every sport handles participation using this model. Are you comparing recreational bowling to the progression of competitive baseball? The Sunday night beer and Pizza league to MLB ? How about we compare recreational bowling to Co-rec softball instead ?
If you want to join in the crusade to organize an progression from competitive youth bowling throughout the ranks , whatever you develop them to be to the PBA tour that would be great!
But lets not compare what we're doing here to the NBA or MLB.
I can just join a softball team, volleyball team, or rec basketball team and play with people I like and want to play with, that's what recreational sports are all about.

[Mike White]

Lets just wait a second before we decide that virtually every sport handles participation using this model. Are you comparing recreational bowling to the progression of competitive baseball? The Sunday night beer and Pizza league to MLB ? How about we compare recreational bowling to Co-rec softball instead ?
If you want to join in the crusade to organize an progression from competitive youth bowling throughout the ranks , whatever you develop them to be to the PBA tour that would be great!
But lets not compare what we're doing here to the NBA or MLB.
I can just join a softball team, volleyball team, or rec basketball team and play with people I like and want to play with, that's what recreational sports are all about.

I haven't played Adult organized Softball, Volleyball, or rec Basketball.

Are those games played competing for money, or just trophies?

Is all money involved strictly to over expenses?

Unfortunately handicap bowling isn't like that.

Bowling has a strong gambling background.

You want a guy with lower ability to risk his money, you have to make the game closer to fair.

[Aslan]

I agree with Mike.

I understand what Tony is getting at, but the sports he listed rarely compete for money. And there's no handicap system in softball or basketball.

The facts are...Divisions work quite well. I've seen them used in rec ice hockey for example...and when paintball was popular they even had a couple different divisions when you'd go to the field. If leagues were in divisions and were scratch...handicap problem eliminated. Especially if they make it so the top average bowls last and lowest average bowls first and you get points for each person beating the person in the same position on the other team. Rob has been in leagues like that.

The PROBLEM with Divisions is...you need lots of teams to do divisions. League bowling in some centers could do it...but most centers barely have enough teams to even field a league on certain nights.

This is gonna be a dilemma for me as sweeps approach and with my new team next season on Wednesdays. At sweeps, I'll be interested to see if any of these so-called 170s average bowlers suddenly drop a 700+ series in Vegas. And next season, I'm on a team with that sandbagger kid...and a friend of his...and I just have a feeling they both might play the sandbagging thing again next season. If they do, I'll find another team. I'm probably not re-joining that league in summer 2016 anyways...so I didn't want to rock the boat too badly yet...plus, we haven't swept yet to maybe it's (sandbagging) not as bad as I fear.

[Aslan]

Is it possible under USBC rules to "weight" averages???

Let me give an example:

If I proposed a league; it would be a 5-person scratch league with a average CAP at 795. Teams with 100% returning members, the cap is 820.

It would be designed like Rob's Vegas league where worst average bowls first, best average bowls last. Standard 5 points for 4 games and Total...but you also are facing off against the other person in the same position as you...and a point is available for each series for a total of 10 points per week.

But, lets assume we keep it a handicap league...back to the question I wanted to ask, to stop sandbagging....I would propose that the average you roll at sweeps in Vegas (in this league...but whatever/wherever you sweep)...that is your entering average next season. That part is simple. But to further discourage sandbagging, I would WEIGHT that average as if it counts 3x as much as a standard league game the following season. Here is a hypothetical example:

Team 1: Entering average 706 (< 795)
Ashley (96)
Bob (121)
Tim (133)
Jimmy (147)
Smitty (209)

At SWEEPS: Ashley bowls a 97. Bob bowls a 123. Tim (sandbagger supreme) bowls a 217 average and wins $569. Jimmy also sandbags a little, and also makes some money ($469) bowling a 189 average. Smitty has trouble with the Vegas lanes and only bowls a 203 average.

The next season, Vegas entering averages are used:
Ashley (97)
Bob (123)
Tim (217)
Jimmy (189)
Smitty (203)

Unfortunately, their team entering average is now 829. That means they need to lose one player and bring in someone with a lower average. And since they can't keep the whole team...they need to get to 795. Lets say Bob isn't coming back and they find a beginner to fill his spot.

Lets say in the first 3 weeks, we'll take Tim and Jimmy as the examples:
Tim continues to sandbag even though he has hurt his team and probably should have been the one to get booted and have to look for another team... 167-188-179.
Jimmy bowls a 152-152-189.

Is it LEGAL to calculate their averages like THIS:

Tim: 217-217-217-167-188-179 = 1185/6 = 197 (versus 178)
Jimmy: 189-189-189-152-152-189 = 1060/6 = 176 (versus 164)

??????

It's not that I want to PUNISH people for having good games at sweeps...it's just that if you have a league of sandbaggers...it GREATLY discourages that behavior for TWO REASONS:

1) If you enter with a 217 average...you may not be able to keep your team together if it was based on you having a 133 average. So sandbagging actually hurts you and your team for the following season.
2) By weighting the average...you don't just get penalized in week 1...it penalizes you every week of the season. I did something like this when I ran the Virtual Bowling Tour. Entering average counted as one month's score (not 3 as I propose above...but that's because the VBT was much shorter than a standard league).

The other way to greatly discourage sandbagging would be to lock the people into spots based on their entering average from Sweeps. In the example above...Tim must now bowl anchor...so if he sandbags and throws 399 series every week...he's costing his team at least 1 point every week if you give points for head-to-head (as I proposed/mentioned in my post below).

But is that LEGAL? Is it LEGAL to weight averages based on sweeps performance?

[Tony]

I haven't played Adult organized Softball, Volleyball, or rec Basketball.

Are those games played competing for money, or just trophies?

Is all money involved strictly to over expenses?

Unfortunately handicap bowling isn't like that.

Bowling has a strong gambling background.

You want a guy with lower ability to risk his money, you have to make the game closer to fair.

I can understand playing for money however playing in the recreational bowling league where you win 100.00 is hardly considered gambling in my book. Certainly the big money leagues and tournaments are a different story.
To answer your question there are many big money tournaments for softball where the payout can be significant but the basic leagues are not usually setup like that.
The others also have money tournaments and again most average leagues do not pay out money.
Softball uses a sort of handicap system related to level of players on your team , only 3 class A players or some similar rule are allowed on a team.