When sweeps leads to sandbagging…bad things happen...

[Aslan]

I can understand playing for money however playing in the recreational bowling league where you win 100.00 is hardly considered gambling in my book. Certainly the big money leagues and tournaments are a different story.

Most leagues out here sweep somewhere...usually Vegas. Of the 3 times I've went...soon to be 4...bowlers that bowl well at Sweeps can generally take home $400-$1500.

The first time I went I think I took home $13. The second time I think I took home $27. And last time I won about $275-$420...somewhere in that range.

I should re-phrase "took home". Obviously, Vegas tends to take whatever money you have and you generally leave with nothing...so I figure on most trips...I need to win $400 just to break even and pay for the trip. Maybe $1000 if I'm there a little longer and take in a show and do some gambling.

And that's why sandbagging is such a problem around this area...because everyone quickly realizes that if you work your butt off for 23 weeks and get a high average and win the league...you get a trophy and about $150. But if you sandbag and finish in last place with a low average...you get a towel and $20...but then take home $950 in Vegas versus the 1st place team/guy that bowls their average and wins $70 in Vegas. $70+$150+trophy = $220 and a trophy. Sandbagger gets $20+$950+a towel = $970 and a towel.

That means the high average, non-sandbagger needs to probably win the mens sidepot 2-10 times throughout the season (depending on how much it's worth) just to break even with the sandbagger.

[Tony]

I agree with Mike.

I understand what Tony is getting at, but the sports he listed rarely compete for money. And there's no handicap system in softball or basketball.

One of the softball teams some buddies of mine played on were playing is 15 or more tournaments for money per summer, some of them charged 1000.00 or more per team and in some cases only the top 3 to 5 teams got paid out of 30 teams or more.
There are over 100 tournaments for softball in Michigan and 88 in Illinois on the current schedule.
Softball is handicapped by restricting number of players of a certain level computed by statistics and listed by the USSSA softball organization. Such as you can have 2 class A players on your roster ...

And yes one of the stats used is number of home runs per game, during a season.....sandbagging would most certainly exist in this format.

I will not speak for the exact organization of all basket ball tournament but I did read about one coming up that is a 1 million dollar winner take all tournament.

[ALazySavage]

Aslan, it is a crappy situation but using a 3 game average to determine a team average cap structure wouldn't work (ignoring if it is legal or not) and here is how I see it.

First, by using the sweeps average as a basis for team structure you are going to lose a lot of bowlers. Not that I personally went to a large sweeps event, but in my Thursday night league sweeper week I shot 790 (I was averaging 219 in that league), if my entering average becomes 263.3 because of one week I'm not coming back the next season...because I'm getting a 69 pin penalty for having one good week (the 44 pin increase in average plus the likely 25 pin penalty for not keeping the original team together). Sandbagging will still occur for those who struggled in the start of sweeps because they will just give up to keep their new entering average low.

Second, because most bowling leagues (especially handicap leagues) are designed to be both competitive and social you are going to continuously break up teams and this will cause people to leave. I first hand saw this in Arizona with the Corvette Classic league (high competition scratch league). At first people did not mind picking up free agents and so forth to remain under the set cap, but as the league progressed every league meeting would have a large portion of the league over this cap, so there was a league vote and the cap would get raised 10 pins...for the majority of teams this was fine, but the teams that were a little bit under the old cap they would disband and maybe the top 2-3 bowlers on each team would join up (this would cause multiple teams to be effectively forced out of the league because they couldn't remain competitive). A few years of this happened and more and more teams would fall under this cap and leave the league. Essentially enough teams fell under the cap that the league got small enough that it no longer was seen as a prestigious league and died out.

[Tony]

Most leagues out here sweep somewhere...usually Vegas. Of the 3 times I've went...soon to be 4...bowlers that bowl well at Sweeps can generally take home $400-$1500.

The first time I went I think I took home $13. The second time I think I took home $27. And last time I won about $275-$420...somewhere in that range.

I should re-phrase "took home". Obviously, Vegas tends to take whatever money you have and you generally leave with nothing...so I figure on most trips...I need to win $400 just to break even and pay for the trip. Maybe $1000 if I'm there a little longer and take in a show and do some gambling.

And that's why sandbagging is such a problem around this area...because everyone quickly realizes that if you work your butt off for 23 weeks and get a high average and win the league...you get a trophy and about $150. But if you sandbag and finish in last place with a low average...you get a towel and $20...but then take home $950 in Vegas versus the 1st place team/guy that bowls their average and wins $70 in Vegas. $70+$150+trophy = $220 and a trophy. Sandbagger gets $20+$950+a towel = $970 and a towel.

That means the high average, non-sandbagger needs to probably win the mens sidepot 2-10 times throughout the season (depending on how much it's worth) just to break even with the sandbagger.

It's all relative, the general leagues around here in the midwest do not have anything like that. I can certain see the problem but I don't see how the incorrect and misleading references to baseball, volleyball , basketball have a place here.

Why don't they use prior tournament scores to compute tournament averages ?

[LyalC52]

don't bowl in leagues that do sweeps, problem solved LDO

[Mike White]

don't bowl in leagues that do sweeps, problem solved LDO

Around here, leagues that don't do sweeps are probably harder to find than scratch leagues.

The only one I can think of is a church league where all of the money left over after lineage is donated to the church.

[TonyInPortland]

Most leagues out here sweep somewhere...usually Vegas. Of the 3 times I've went...soon to be 4...bowlers that bowl well at Sweeps can generally take home $400-$1500.

The first time I went I think I took home $13. The second time I think I took home $27. And last time I won about $275-$420...somewhere in that range.

I should re-phrase "took home". Obviously, Vegas tends to take whatever money you have and you generally leave with nothing...so I figure on most trips...I need to win $400 just to break even and pay for the trip. Maybe $1000 if I'm there a little longer and take in a show and do some gambling.

And that's why sandbagging is such a problem around this area...because everyone quickly realizes that if you work your butt off for 23 weeks and get a high average and win the league...you get a trophy and about $150. But if you sandbag and finish in last place with a low average...you get a towel and $20...but then take home $950 in Vegas versus the 1st place team/guy that bowls their average and wins $70 in Vegas. $70+$150+trophy = $220 and a trophy. Sandbagger gets $20+$950+a towel = $970 and a towel.

That means the high average, non-sandbagger needs to probably win the mens sidepot 2-10 times throughout the season (depending on how much it's worth) just to break even with the sandbagger.

They go to Vegas and bowl the Sweeper there? I have been in a few leagues in Oregon and never heard of that. I know there are leagues where they go to Vegas at the end of the season, but I didn't think that they bowled there. That seems ridiculous. What if you work and can't leave town? Then if you do go, you have to transport all your equipment on a plane and worry about it being damaged or stolen. Then, like you said, if you do win anything, you spend it all back in Vegas. Wow, that seems like a really bad idea all the way around. I wouldn't bowl a league that did that!

[Amyers]

Most leagues out here sweep somewhere...usually Vegas. Of the 3 times I've went...soon to be 4...bowlers that bowl well at Sweeps can generally take home $400-$1500.

The first time I went I think I took home $13. The second time I think I took home $27. And last time I won about $275-$420...somewhere in that range.

I should re-phrase "took home". Obviously, Vegas tends to take whatever money you have and you generally leave with nothing...so I figure on most trips...I need to win $400 just to break even and pay for the trip. Maybe $1000 if I'm there a little longer and take in a show and do some gambling.

And that's why sandbagging is such a problem around this area...because everyone quickly realizes that if you work your butt off for 23 weeks and get a high average and win the league...you get a trophy and about $150. But if you sandbag and finish in last place with a low average...you get a towel and $20...but then take home $950 in Vegas versus the 1st place team/guy that bowls their average and wins $70 in Vegas. $70+$150+trophy = $220 and a trophy. Sandbagger gets $20+$950+a towel = $970 and a towel.

That means the high average, non-sandbagger needs to probably win the mens sidepot 2-10 times throughout the season (depending on how much it's worth) just to break even with the sandbagger.

There are no sweeper leagues here but we do have some high dollar leagues in the area. Smaller area here so if someone was routinely doing something like this everyone would know it and they would be done bowling here period. Also Are they bowling individually or as a team during these sweepers? Unless a lot of the team is doing it seems to me unless they are willing to completely tank 20 extra pins can make a difference but not that hard to overcome. I can't see anybody here willing to take the reputation hit to do this.

[LyalC52]

Around here, leagues that don't do sweeps are probably harder to find than scratch leagues.

The only one I can think of is a church league where all of the money left over after lineage is donated to the church.

Of the 3 house I bowl at, I know of only one league that will be doing sweepers and they will go to Vegas for them.

Just started a 4 man scratch league, $25.00 per night,
guaranteed $5,000 to the winning team, $1,000 to last place

[Mike White]

There are no sweeper leagues here but we do have some high dollar leagues in the area. Smaller area here so if someone was routinely doing something like this everyone would know it and they would be done bowling here period. Also Are they bowling individually or as a team during these sweepers? Unless a lot of the team is doing it seems to me unless they are willing to completely tank 20 extra pins can make a difference but not that hard to overcome. I can't see anybody here willing to take the reputation hit to do this.

Around here sweepers money is paid out for a few different categories.

Everything is with Handicap

Womens Singles
Mens Singles
Womens Double (every female is paired with every other female)
Mens Doubles (same pairing rules)
Mixed Doubles (every person is paired with every other person of the opposite gender)

When there is money set aside for teams, it's usually a set amount per pair, with the team on the pair who shoots higher total, gets something like 60%, and the lower team gets 40%.

Occasionally they will split the singles and doubles each into 3 payouts, one for each game, rather than total series.

In my Laughlin league, of the money left after lineage, 75% goes towards point money (paid before going to Laughlin) and 25% is paid based on how you do in Laughlin.

Oh also out of that money, the league pays for one night hotel per person. So a couple staying in the same room would get 2 nights, or can opt for 1 night, and cash.

Some people gamble enough that the casino comps them rooms, so the league gives them cash instead of the room.