Rebel Tank - Sometimes Straighter is Greater!

[NewToBowling]

Amazing, the reason the resin balls exists is due to the number of bowlers who couldn't hook urethane balls and decided to buy a hook-in-a-box.

If that was the end of it, no problem, but the cry babies needed more help from the oil pattern so their ball would hold pocket.

So now you have your steroid balls, and walled up lanes, that change very quickly.

People don't want to practice on "burned up" lanes because they are so different than league.

Well if you get rid of steroid balls, the lanes don't change as much.

But then you need to learn how to hook the urethane ball, oh and get better at spares because you're going to be shooting at a lot more of them.

So 32 feet is just too tough... sorry, but we did just fine with 24 feet back before the cry babies ran the show.

The more people use steroid balls, the weaker their release becomes, or they stop improving it while it is still weak.

I agree with this assessment. Playing on THS you have so much room for error it's hilarious. I can almost gutter a ball and it will come back to the pocket and get a strike most of the time. The built in hook and hold areas are pretty crazy on THS

[Aslan]

Even though there's been some back and forth and slight disagreement...this is a rare thread where I honestly agree with every single post.

Rob, in many ways is correct. I have used "straighter is greater" because I have low revs and can't seem to fix that without coming up the side and over top the ball. The PBA has also furthered this by making that comment every time a guy like Pete Weber and Norm Duke and WRW play less angle and win...but many times fail to mention that all of those guys have very high rev rates with very modern releases and can play anywhere on that lane...they just chose that line.

FTLOB is also correct though. Lines such as the one illustrated in the ball video (holy thread hijack Batman...but hey...it would have been 0 responses and 14 views had we not started this...and Motiv staff can feel free to weigh in if they want to)...sometimes you have high rev bowlers that simply refuse to learn how to play straighter lines. How many thumbless guys have bowled a 215-237-148 series because once the pattern broke down and they ran out of room left...they had no ability to score anymore or even pick up spares? While it's the opposite of Rob's example...it's the same in concept as the guys that can't play in heavy oil because they have no revs and can't hook the ball enough and end up with very little angle into the pocket....only their scores go 148-169-191.

Rob is also right about the short patterns. Those patterns were designed to make things hard on bowlers who have exploited modern equipment to make the sport "not much sport" anymore. Is that "fair"? I don't know. I think they find it a better option than limiting equipment to plastic, rubber, or urethane. But Amyers is also right....I've played on the shortest of sport patterns out there...some of the WTBA patterns are even shorter than the Wolf, Badger, or Bear...but let me tell you....if you add volume and flatten out those patterns...high rev guys on fresh conditions will still do quite well...because that ball ain't going anywhere for the first half of the lane. The trick for the high rev guys is there's less room for error in the last half of the lane where the ball can grab suddenly, early, or too much.

And MWhite is also right...these problems don't exist because some people learned to hook and some didn't. Mark Roth hooked the living *poo out of urethane balls. In the 70s/80s/90s...guys were playing the 2-board trying to keep those urethane balls right of the headpin. Patterns were shorter...and drier...and harder. Then reactive resin came along...and I watch old people with no knee bend and no "modern high rev release"...yet they can throw a Crux, Hyper Cell, Optimus, or Guru...playing a huge angle (but with little speed)...and that ball won't stay right of the headpin (for a righty). And when people cried it was too hard to play outside the 5-board...they made the patterns longer. When tumbles, 2-handers, and palm bowlers were complaining they still couldn't stay right....they added volume and length again. When the low rev folks complained they always miss right...they get a new Pro-performance ball and problem solved. It's common in many sports...but blatently so in bowling...that the sport's integrity is a distant 2nd or 3rd to keeping bowlers scoring high and happy.

Lets compare bowling to baseball:

In baseball, for youth...you can use a tee. In bowling they have those racks.

After little league, you are able to steal bases...but the rules are fairly similar all the way up from Little League to the pros...the only big difference is you can't use metal bats in the major/minor leagues and the home run line moves back as you move up.

So why can't Pro Bowling adopt that same model. If resin balls are as influential as metal bats are to baseball (and I would argue they are more so)...why not make them illegal for pros to use?

I know the answer is ball companies and money and all that. I guess I'm just pointing out that other sports have faced these dilemmas and dealt with them to maintain some integrity (wood bats only) but also to keep the sport as entertaining as possible (modified baseballs to go further).

The other side of the coin is golf...very similar to bowling. But golf is a difficult example because the advanced equipment doesn't help as much. It DOES...there's not many golfers that can score well with an old 1960s back of wood drivers, etc... BUT...you're not going to go from a below average golfer to trying your luck in a PGA Open just because you upgraded from an old set of Wilsons to a new bag of Calloways. What is it in bowling going from an old urethane ball missing right to a monster built in hook ball? 20 pins in average? 30 pins? 40 pins? 100 pins?

[NewToBowling]

So why can't Pro Bowling adopt that same model. If resin balls are as influential as metal bats are to baseball (and I would argue they are more so)...why not make them illegal for pros to use?

I know the answer is ball companies and money and all that. I guess I'm just pointing out that other sports have faced these dilemmas and dealt with them to maintain some integrity (wood bats only) but also to keep the sport as entertaining as possible (modified baseballs to go further).

The other side of the coin is golf...very similar to bowling. But golf is a difficult example because the advanced equipment doesn't help as much. It DOES...there's not many golfers that can score well with an old 1960s back of wood drivers, etc... BUT...you're not going to go from a below average golfer to trying your luck in a PGA Open just because you upgraded from an old set of Wilsons to a new bag of Calloways. What is it in bowling going from an old urethane ball missing right to a monster built in hook ball? 20 pins in average? 30 pins? 40 pins? 100 pins?

I'm guessing because ball manufacturers probably account for a majority of their sponsors and thus revenue. They're not going to bite the hand that feeds them.

Tennis is another sport where technology is taking over. Tennis racket and string technology is really advanced these days. Guys from other eras (McEnroe, Borg, etc) couldn't hang with these guys today unless they adapt.

[Amyers]

I think we are over estimating the impact of resin balls on a typical lane pattern. On a house shot I'm pretty sure I could average 170 maybe a little more with my plastic I average 185-190 with my resin I would think urethane would be somewhere between so at most resins worth what ten pins a game or so wow. Now if you want to try and throw resin on badger good luck to you.

If you did make that change and everyone was throwing urethane equipment can you imagine the carry down issues you would have on a modern pattern? There is a reason why those patterns were short and heavy.

Performance enhancing drugs in baseball and probably most other sports, Newer equipment look what modern racquets have done to tennis, taller faster players i.e. basketball and football. The games change over time it's why you can't really compare different eras in most sports.

[RobLV1]

Even though there's been some back and forth and slight disagreement...this is a rare thread where I honestly agree with every single post.

Rob, in many ways is correct. I have used "straighter is greater" because I have low revs and can't seem to fix that without coming up the side and over top the ball. The PBA has also furthered this by making that comment every time a guy like Pete Weber and Norm Duke and WRW play less angle and win...but many times fail to mention that all of those guys have very high rev rates with very modern releases and can play anywhere on that lane...they just chose that line.

FTLOB is also correct though. Lines such as the one illustrated in the ball video (holy thread hijack Batman...but hey...it would have been 0 responses and 14 views had we not started this...and Motiv staff can feel free to weigh in if they want to)...sometimes you have high rev bowlers that simply refuse to learn how to play straighter lines. How many thumbless guys have bowled a 215-237-148 series because once the pattern broke down and they ran out of room left...they had no ability to score anymore or even pick up spares? While it's the opposite of Rob's example...it's the same in concept as the guys that can't play in heavy oil because they have no revs and can't hook the ball enough and end up with very little angle into the pocket....only their scores go 148-169-191.

Good post, Aslan. The only thing that I question is the tendency of many on this forum to equate high rev bowling to thumbless bowling. Sure, there are lots of new bowlers out there who never learn how to bowl with their thumb in the ball, because all they are interested in from the get-go is how much they can hook it. If, on the other hand, you look at the great majority of PBA pros, they generate revs, and they maintain accuracy by doing it with their thumb in the ball. High revs do not negate the need for accuracy. To really be successful today on anything but a walled house shot, you need both power and accuracy.

[Amyers]

I'm guessing because ball manufacturers probably account for a majority of their sponsors and thus revenue. They're not going to bite the hand that feeds them.

Tennis is another sport where technology is taking over. Tennis racket and string technology is really advanced these days. Guys from other eras (McEnroe, Borg, etc) couldn't hang with these guys today unless they adapt.

I think this is the best analogy you posted this at the same time was posting mine. Watch an old Wimbledon match and watch a new one. In the pre 80's ones about 70% of the points were decided at the net modern Wimbledon most players don't even advance towards the net it has completely become a power game. Same thing in bowling you generate the speed to match your revs or unless your one of the few selects on the tour (WRW, Norm) you don't compete. Now if you really want to talk about who has a reason to B**** it's the lefties who have the righty handers playing 6th arrow and burning up their head oil.

[Mike White]

I think we are over estimating the impact of resin balls on a typical lane pattern. On a house shot I'm pretty sure I could average 170 maybe a little more with my plastic I average 185-190 with my resin I would think urethane would be somewhere between so at most resins worth what ten pins a game or so wow. Now if you want to try and throw resin on badger good luck to you.

If you did make that change and everyone was throwing urethane equipment can you imagine the carry down issues you would have on a modern pattern? There is a reason why those patterns were short and heavy.

Performance enhancing drugs in baseball and probably most other sports, Newer equipment look what modern racquets have done to tennis, taller faster players i.e. basketball and football. The games change over time it's why you can't really compare different eras in most sports.

I used strictly low end urethane for this whole winter season on a house shot, and averaged 210 in two leagues, and about 205 in an afternoon senior league.

Imagine if I were able to cry enough to get long enough oil that I could use resin.

Urethane doesn't require heavy oil even for short length patterns.

In the plastic ball tourneys they use about 1/2 the normal amounts of oil, and still the pros are sanding the crap out of the balls.

[Aslan]

I think this is the best analogy you posted this at the same time was posting mine. Watch an old Wimbledon match and watch a new one. In the pre 80's ones about 70% of the points were decided at the net modern Wimbledon most players don't even advance towards the net it has completely become a power game. Same thing in bowling you generate the speed to match your revs or unless your one of the few selects on the tour (WRW, Norm) you don't compete. Now if you really want to talk about who has a reason to B**** it's the lefties who have the righty handers playing 6th arrow and burning up their head oil.

Except....in tennis...the sport never changed their requirements. The tennis court is the exact same dimensions with the exact same net height. A football field is still 100 yards. Those sports have seen technical advancements...absolutely...but they've never had to mess with the game much as a result. People just play faster, harder, better, etc...

And obviously they aren't going back to pre-resin in bowling. Even if it kills the sport...they can't go back now. And are the bowling ball companies the main sponsors? Ummm...I think they're the ONLY sponsors. I see Barbasol commercials and Hotel Planner....an occasional Geico advertisement...but primarily the events (and many amateur tournaments) are sponsored by ball companies. It's not the old days of Folgers, Miller Lite, and Oscar Meyer.

And I agree Rob...the best bowlers can generate revs with their thumb in and staying behind the ball...but very few amateur/house players that I've seen have put in the time and investment needed to do that. Going up the side is easier...many of them have always done that. And for the newer guys...it's just SO much easier to adopt a 2-handed, palm, or thumbless release.

I was going to disagree that high rev/angle guys need accuracy...but you saved it when you said in a "non-walled house shot". Absolutely the high rev guys have to be accurate on sport patterns. I saw lots of 200-240 average bowlers averaging 180-200 on sport conditions because they didn't get that 6-board cushion. BUT...on a typical house shot...I've seen plenty...PLENTY of thumbless guys that simply throw the ball out to an "area" and it slams into the pins with such angle/power...it strikes most of the time. Where they often FAIL...and this is what separates the thumbless guys in house leagues from the thumbless guys in tournaments is...their ability to make spares.

Interesting (to me) story:
There's a team on Wednesdays I always watch because the one girl on the team is kinda hot...but sorta stuck up...but not good looking enough to be stuck up...but anyways...I find her interesting in a weird social dynamic sort of way. So, their team is made up of a few beginners...and two VERY high rev thumbless guys. Both definitely do NOT subscribe to a "relaxed swing" approach to bowling.

Well, when we played them, I went to my anchor and I said, "Listen...we're gonna lose game 1, I can almost guarantee it. But...by game 2 their big hitters are gonna tire out...and once they stop striking...if WE can pick up our spares...we'll beat them or at least split." I knew this from watching them. Game 1...their 2 good bowlers are KILLING it. Both were on track for 230-300 games in Game 1. We got killed.

In game 2...their bigger guy got tired...started hitting light...couldn't carry...and had about a 40% spare pick-up rate. And by Game 3...their other guy, the younger one...he finally tired as well...still was strong...but missed a few make-able spares. We had a shot at 3 out of 4 points....just like I said. Granted, we only got the 1 because two of us opened in the 10th and our anchor miscounted the score and sandbagged us out of 1 point....but that's neither here nor there.

The point of the story is...the high rev guys are really tough to beat if they are "on". But most of them...especially the physically unfit (like 4 bills)...they will tire. And if they can pick up spares...they can still score respectable...but if they can't...it's blood in the water.

But to Rob's point...I've see TWO...bowlers in house leagues... that are able to generate "regional PBA level" revs with their thumb in and a proper release behind and through the ball. One of them is the pro shop guy at the AMF center and highest average (231) in that league...the other is the best bowler and a person with a PhD in Sandbagging from Jackhole University...who is last year's high average (205) guy in my Tuesday league. It's SO RARE...that when you see it...you stop and go, "whoa....who's THAT guy?" In Vegas you might have more guys that fit that mold...but bowlers willing to put in the YEARS of training and practice to master the modern game...few, few and far between. And that's unfortunate. But it reminds me about a release question for another thread.

So this Motiv ball...if my dog licks it...will he get sick? <----attempt to un-hi-jack...

[Amyers]

Except....in tennis...the sport never changed their requirements. The tennis court is the exact same dimensions with the exact same net height. A football field is still 100 yards. Those sports have seen technical advancements...absolutely...but they've never had to mess with the game much as a result. People just play faster, harder, better, etc...

And obviously they aren't going back to pre-resin in bowling. Even if it kills the sport...they can't go back now. And are the bowling ball companies the main sponsors? Ummm...I think they're the ONLY sponsors. I see Barbasol commercials and Hotel Planner....an occasional Geico advertisement...but primarily the events (and many amateur tournaments) are sponsored by ball companies. It's not the old days of Folgers, Miller Lite, and Oscar Meyer.

And I agree Rob...the best bowlers can generate revs with their thumb in and staying behind the ball...but very few amateur/house players that I've seen have put in the time and investment needed to do that. Going up the side is easier...many of them have always done that. And for the newer guys...it's just SO much easier to adopt a 2-handed, palm, or thumbless release.

I was going to disagree that high rev/angle guys need accuracy...but you saved it when you said in a "non-walled house shot". Absolutely the high rev guys have to be accurate on sport patterns. I saw lots of 200-240 average bowlers averaging 180-200 on sport conditions because they didn't get that 6-board cushion. BUT...on a typical house shot...I've seen plenty...PLENTY of thumbless guys that simply throw the ball out to an "area" and it slams into the pins with such angle/power...it strikes most of the time. Where they often FAIL...and this is what separates the thumbless guys in house leagues from the thumbless guys in tournaments is...their ability to make spares.

Interesting (to me) story:
There's a team on Wednesdays I always watch because the one girl on the team is kinda hot...but sorta stuck up...but not good looking enough to be stuck up...but anyways...I find her interesting in a weird social dynamic sort of way. So, their team is made up of a few beginners...and two VERY high rev thumbless guys. Both definitely do NOT subscribe to a "relaxed swing" approach to bowling.

Well, when we played them, I went to my anchor and I said, "Listen...we're gonna lose game 1, I can almost guarantee it. But...by game 2 their big hitters are gonna tire out...and once they stop striking...if WE can pick up our spares...we'll beat them or at least split." I knew this from watching them. Game 1...their 2 good bowlers are KILLING it. Both were on track for 230-300 games in Game 1. We got killed.

In game 2...their bigger guy got tired...started hitting light...couldn't carry...and had about a 40% spare pick-up rate. And by Game 3...their other guy, the younger one...he finally tired as well...still was strong...but missed a few make-able spares. We had a shot at 3 out of 4 points....just like I said. Granted, we only got the 1 because two of us opened in the 10th and our anchor miscounted the score and sandbagged us out of 1 point....but that's neither here nor there.

The point of the story is...the high rev guys are really tough to beat if they are "on". But most of them...especially the physically unfit (like 4 bills)...they will tire. And if they can pick up spares...they can still score respectable...but if they can't...it's blood in the water.

But to Rob's point...I've see TWO...bowlers in house leagues... that are able to generate "regional PBA level" revs with their thumb in and a proper release behind and through the ball. One of them is the pro shop guy at the AMF center and highest average (231) in that league...the other is the best bowler and a person with a PhD in Sandbagging from Jackhole University...who is last year's high average (205) guy in my Tuesday league. It's SO RARE...that when you see it...you stop and go, "whoa....who's THAT guy?" In Vegas you might have more guys that fit that mold...but bowlers willing to put in the YEARS of training and practice to master the modern game...few, few and far between. And that's unfortunate. But it reminds me about a release question for another thread.

So this Motiv ball...if my dog licks it...will he get sick? <----attempt to un-hi-jack...

It always amazes me the lack of talent you describe in you area but I go on some other boards and here talk of a pretty vibrant Southern California bowling scene. One of my houses is a twelve lane house typically a lower scoring house for the area we have 7 guys over 210 now only one is over 230 former pba pro (not a name you would know) in one league. Some of the other larger and by larger 24-36 lanes house have well over 10 200+ bowlers in most leagues. With your large houses they can't find anyone with any talent to bowl in them?

[Aslan]

It always amazes me the lack of talent you describe in you area but I go on some other boards and here talk of a pretty vibrant Southern California bowling scene. One of my houses is a twelve lane house typically a lower scoring house for the area we have 7 guys over 210 now only one is over 230 former pba pro (not a name you would know) in one league. Some of the other larger and by larger 24-36 lanes house have well over 10 200+ bowlers in most leagues. With your large houses they can't find anyone with any talent to bowl in them?

There's two reasons for that that I can see:

1) Every bowler assumes the house they bowl at has a tough shot. Very few bowlers will admit to, know, or feel that they bowl in an "easy house"; especially if they only bowl in one house. So it's very possible that if you have 6-7 guys over 230...your shot is rather easy. I used to think the variations between houses was minor...but now I've seen the light and have literally experienced first hand just how different a center can make their conditions.

2) Southern California has a lot of talent and a lot of centers and a lot of leagues. Kinda like Vegas. But that means competitive bowlers don't always bowl with non-competitive bowlers. For example, my Tuesday league has a former pro shop owner bowling...but the rest of the league...none of them bowl tournaments or anything like that. Meanwhile, the current pro shop owner...he bowls in all kinds of different leagues, some travel leagues, some tournaments...but he's in leagues at other centers..."competitive leagues". I tried my hand at that when I joined the sport pattern league...but I just wasn't ready for that level of competition.

The center I've chosen to bowl at in the Fall, that is next to my apartment, they have many more options for leagues, some scratch leagues, and most of their leagues have average caps for the teams. It's a center a bit more popular with competitive bowlers. My Tuesday center is not viewed as a "competitive bowling center"...it's viewed more as a trendy entertainment venue....so it doesn't attract the bowling talent. And the house where I bowl on Wednesdays is an old AMF house...it lost a lot of it's devoted bowlers over the years due to how run down it is and poor management and then the bowlmor buyout. So while it has a handful of talented bowlers...the league is fairly small and it's a lot of "old timers" that have been loyal to that house since back when it was more legitimate.

Vegas is a bit more interesting...and Rob or Chuck may be able to comment better....but I'm sure there are some leagues and even centers that are more the happy/fun/night out kinda leagues with less actual "talent" and then there are leagues where Rob is bowling next to PBA Regional players.