Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Results 21 to 30 of 38

Thread: Importance of Surface

  1. #21

    Default

    I think that a lot of the confusion comes from many bowler's inability to distinguish between hook and roll. Because the ball begins to hook when the rotational energy created by the bowlers release and the forward energy created by the momentum of the bowlers approach and armswing, friction plays a much bigger part in determining when the ball hooks. The resistance created by the rg measurement determines when the ball rolls.

  2. #22
    Bowling God Aslan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Hutchinson, KS
    Posts
    6,912
    Chats: 204

    Default

    Hopefully...if I'm understanding this discussion at all...which I probably don't....hopefully I can make a point for Rob here:

    I am the POSTER BOY for having low RPMs and trying to make up for that deficiency by using surface. My first 3 balls in my arsenal are surfaced as follows:

    Bullet Train: OOB: 2500 neat. Current surface: 500 abralon.
    Hammer Rhythm: OOB = 2000 abralon. Current surface: 1000 abralon.
    Columbia300 Encounter: OOB = 2000 abralon. Current surface: sanded to 1000 grit wet/dry then 1000 abralon.

    Now...this "cheating" with surface manipulation HAS allowed me to get to the pocket with at least some angle. Without these surface changes...with my slightly elevated speed and approximately 250rpms...I was missing right constantly before changing the surfaces.

    BUT...it has had some negative effects as well...and this goes along with (I think) what Rob is talking about with the hook/roll phase. The downside of having these balls sanded so much is...the ball hooks SOONER not MORE. So it helps get the ball to the pocket...but by the time it gets there...it's often "rolled out" and I get a lot of pocket hits where the ball deflects to the right because it just doesn't have the carry energy left and virtually no break-point angle.

    I actually get MORE angle and better power into the pocket using my two polished balls...the other Encounter and the Slingshot...because at least some of the energy is stored up and able to be released when the ball encounters friction. The PROBLEM with those two balls is...on fresh oil...until the pattern breaks down considerably...I just don't have the rev rate to get those balls into the pocket...not on a fresh pattern with medium (or higher) volume/length.

    Case in point:
    I practiced yesterday and had to stop using the Bullet Train after 1.5 games because it couldn't stay right of the headpin. It WASN'T that the ball was too strong...hitting the breakpoint...and missing left. It was that the ball at 500 abralon was reading the lanes too soon...and rolling out straight into the headpin. A move left and the ball missed the headpin right. A move right and the ball encounters even drier conditions even earlier and still goes through the headpin but with even less energy.

    Rob is right...most bowlers...including myself....have a hard time seeing when that ball transitions from skid to hook and especially from hook to roll. And in today's game, that's a very, very important concept to understand...because the balls aren't made to go out, make a big arc, and come back into the pocket. The balls nowadays are made to "snap" when they encounter friction. Sanding them actually takes away that "snap"...and the ball ends up "flopping" into the pocket like a wet noodle. On heavier oil, or very long/tough patterns...with no rev rate...you may not have a choice. But that doesn't make it "ideal".
    In Bag: (: .) Motiv Trident Odyssey; (: .) Hammer Scorpion Sting; (: .) Pyramid Force Pearl; (: .) Brunswick Rhino Gold; (: .) Ebonite Maxim
    USBC#: 8259-59071; USBC Sanctioned Average = 186; Lifetime Average = 171;
    Ball Speed: 15.5mph; Rev. Rate: 240rpm || High Game (sanc.) = 300 (268); High Series (sanc.) = 725 (720); Clean Games: 181

    Smokey this is not 'Nam', this is bowling. There are rules. Proud two-time winner of a bowlingboards.com weekly ball give-away!

  3. #23

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by RobLV1 View Post
    I think that a lot of the confusion comes from many bowler's inability to distinguish between hook and roll. Because the ball begins to hook when the rotational energy created by the bowlers release and the forward energy created by the momentum of the bowlers approach and armswing, friction plays a much bigger part in determining when the ball hooks. The resistance created by the rg measurement determines when the ball rolls.
    You may have just blown my mind.. I thought RG had an impact on when it hooked not how quickly it got into a roll. So if I understand you right, the Higher RG Ball will have a longer hook phase given the same layout ? (Which would explain why given the same surface the Low RG IQ Fusion seems to have a more skid/snap feel than the Hyroad which shares its same coverstock.)

  4. #24
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    Riverside Ca
    Posts
    2,315
    Chats: 68

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by bobforsaken View Post
    You may have just blown my mind.. I thought RG had an impact on when it hooked not how quickly it got into a roll. So if I understand you right, the Higher RG Ball will have a longer hook phase given the same layout ? (Which would explain why given the same surface the Low RG IQ Fusion seems to have a more skid/snap feel than the Hyroad which shares its same coverstock.)
    He blew your mind with that incoherent comment?

    He couldn't even keep the thought straight to himself.

  5. #25
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    Riverside Ca
    Posts
    2,315
    Chats: 68

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Aslan View Post
    Hopefully...if I'm understanding this discussion at all...which I probably don't....hopefully I can make a point for Rob here:

    I am the POSTER BOY for having low RPMs and trying to make up for that deficiency by using surface. My first 3 balls in my arsenal are surfaced as follows:

    Bullet Train: OOB: 2500 neat. Current surface: 500 abralon.
    Hammer Rhythm: OOB = 2000 abralon. Current surface: 1000 abralon.
    Columbia300 Encounter: OOB = 2000 abralon. Current surface: sanded to 1000 grit wet/dry then 1000 abralon.

    Now...this "cheating" with surface manipulation HAS allowed me to get to the pocket with at least some angle. Without these surface changes...with my slightly elevated speed and approximately 250rpms...I was missing right constantly before changing the surfaces.
    Before you sanded the ball, it went in the direction you threw it much further down the lane.

    Unfortunately that wasn't a good thing. If you threw it directly at the 3 pin, it went directly at the 3 pin.

    If you threw it right of that, it went right of that. Again, not a good thing.

    After sanding the ball it changed direction some.

    Now when you threw it at the 3 pin it hooked up until it hit the oil line, held the line, and hooked a little more to reach the pocket.

    If you missed a little right, it still hooked back to the oil line, so you hit the pocket the same.

    It wasn't until you missed right by much more that you missed the pocket.

    Now the opposite, when you pulled the ball left of target, the oil held the ball back, but it didn't cause the ball to rev up the same.

    Therefore it didn't hook that little bit at the end.

    Unless the pull resulted in high flush, you most likely left a weak 10, or worse.

    The sanding of the ball was only part of what helped you find the pocket.

    The wall of oil was the other part.

    Take away the wall, and the sanding would make the ball hook left too often.

  6. #26
    Bowling Guru Amyers's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Charleston, WV
    Posts
    3,991
    Chats: 32

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by bobforsaken View Post
    You may have just blown my mind.. I thought RG had an impact on when it hooked not how quickly it got into a roll. So if I understand you right, the Higher RG Ball will have a longer hook phase given the same layout ? (Which would explain why given the same surface the Low RG IQ Fusion seems to have a more skid/snap feel than the Hyroad which shares its same coverstock.)
    No that isn't really what he said RG does not control the length of the hook phase only when the hook phase begins. How long the hook phase lasts is determined by the drilling of the ball and the differential.
    I am a proud member of Bowlingboards.com bowling forums and ball contest winner

    Current arsenal

    900 Global Badger Claw - Radical Ridiculous Pearl - Spare Ball Ebonite T Zone

  7. #27

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Amyers View Post
    No that isn't really what he said RG does not control the length of the hook phase only when the hook phase begins. How long the hook phase lasts is determined by the drilling of the ball and the differential.

    That is how I interpreted the following " friction plays a much bigger part in determining when the ball hooks. The resistance created by the rg measurement determines when the ball rolls."

    So if the phases are skid transition hook transition roll... based on the statement above I interpreted it as either slowing down the hook phase or the transition phase before the roll. I understand the drilling is what can lengthen or shorten the hook phase (as well as other ball motion factors), but isn't that saying the same thing? Isn't the drilling used on a ball accomplishing different RG's and differentials? In other words, to slow the transition from hook to roll choose a drilling that give the ball its maximum RG (given the position of the weight block compared to your PAP). To create a more angular and quick hook to roll transition, choose a drilling that lowers the RG.

  8. #28

    Default

    "Using a smaller angle between the pin to PAP line and the VAL (minimum of 20º) will lower the RG and increase the total differential of the drilled ball. These changes will result in the ball revving up faster and transitioning quicker. Conversely, using a larger angle between the pin to PAP line and the VAL (maximum of approximately 70º) will raise the RG and lower the total differential of the drilled ball. These changes will result in the ball revving up and transitioning slower. "


    From http://www.bowlingball.com/BowlVersi...yout-technique

  9. #29
    Bowling Guru Amyers's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Charleston, WV
    Posts
    3,991
    Chats: 32

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by bobforsaken View Post
    That is how I interpreted the following " friction plays a much bigger part in determining when the ball hooks. The resistance created by the rg measurement determines when the ball rolls."

    So if the phases are skid transition hook transition roll... based on the statement above I interpreted it as either slowing down the hook phase or the transition phase before the roll. I understand the drilling is what can lengthen or shorten the hook phase (as well as other ball motion factors), but isn't that saying the same thing? Isn't the drilling used on a ball accomplishing different RG's and differentials? In other words, to slow the transition from hook to roll choose a drilling that give the ball its maximum RG (given the position of the weight block compared to your PAP). To create a more angular and quick hook to roll transition, choose a drilling that lowers the RG.
    You nailed it Bob the RG determines where the ball will start to roll. The differential determines the length of the hook phase or how quickly the ball spends it rotational energy. With drilling you are altering both the RG and differential. It's a balancing game and the reason you need good quality PSO's. I don't believe that RG determines how angular the ball is other than ball is storing it's energy for longer. How angular a ball is determined more by cover strength, surface, and differential. A ball is also only capable of making the most of what a bowler puts into it.

    I've always felt the Fusion was a little earlier than the Hyroad from what I have seen but the Fusion tends to cover more boards on the backend if that's what you mean.
    I am a proud member of Bowlingboards.com bowling forums and ball contest winner

    Current arsenal

    900 Global Badger Claw - Radical Ridiculous Pearl - Spare Ball Ebonite T Zone

  10. #30
    Bowling Guru Amyers's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Charleston, WV
    Posts
    3,991
    Chats: 32

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by RobLV1 View Post
    I think that a lot of the confusion comes from many bowler's inability to distinguish between hook and roll. Because the ball begins to hook when the rotational energy created by the bowlers release and the forward energy created by the momentum of the bowlers approach and armswing, friction plays a much bigger part in determining when the ball hooks. The resistance created by the rg measurement determines when the ball rolls.
    SO are you saying you believe that balls skid, roll, hook and roll? I have always heard it described as skid, hook, and roll. I believe rotational energy starts to be used as soon as the ball stops skidding. I believe RG, surface and cover strength all combine to determine when the ball stops skidding and starts to hook. Of course the oil or lack there of depending on where the bowler places the ball plays a role also and the type of roll placed on the ball by the bowler can also effect where the ball will start to transition.
    Last edited by Amyers; 06-23-2015 at 10:47 AM.
    I am a proud member of Bowlingboards.com bowling forums and ball contest winner

    Current arsenal

    900 Global Badger Claw - Radical Ridiculous Pearl - Spare Ball Ebonite T Zone

Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •