Importance of Surface

[RobLV1]

SO are you saying you believe that balls skid, roll, hook and roll? I have always heard it described as skid, hook, and roll. I believe rotational energy starts to be used as soon as the ball stops skidding. I believe RG, surface and cover strength all combine to determine when the ball stops skidding and starts to hook. Of course the oil or lack there of depending on where the bowler places the ball plays a role also and the type of roll placed on the ball by the bowler can also effect where the ball will start to transition.

No, I am also saying that the three primary phases of ball motion are skid, hook, and roll, in that order. The laws of physics says that an object remains in motion, going in the same direction, until it is acted upon by an equal an opposing force (this is paraphrasing to help understanding). When the ball is released by the bowler, the main energy is the forward motion that is generated by the footwork and armswing. While the ball is also rotating as a result of the bowler's release, the rotational energy is less than the forward energy until friction between the ball and the lane surface causes the ball to slow slightly, allowing the rotational energy to become equal to the forward energy, and causing the ball to begin to change direction (hook). With this in mind, it is easy to see that more surface on the bowling ball allows more friction sooner, and earlier hook. The roll phase is reached when the ball fully "revs up." As the resistance or lack of resistance created by the low rg measurement determines how hard the ball has to work to fully rev up, it is the roll phase that is primarily affected by the low RG. Is that a little clearer?

[bobforsaken]

No, I am also saying that the three primary phases of ball motion are skid, hook, and roll, in that order. The laws of physics says that an object remains in motion, going in the same direction, until it is acted upon by an equal an opposing force (this is paraphrasing to help understanding). When the ball is released by the bowler, the main energy is the forward motion that is generated by the footwork and armswing. While the ball is also rotating as a result of the bowler's release, the rotational energy is less than the forward energy until friction between the ball and the lane surface causes the ball to slow slightly, allowing the rotational energy to become equal to the forward energy, and causing the ball to begin to change direction (hook). With this in mind, it is easy to see that more surface on the bowling ball allows more friction sooner, and earlier hook. The roll phase is reached when the ball fully "revs up." As the resistance or lack of resistance created by the low rg measurement determines how hard the ball has to work to fully rev up, it is the roll phase that is primarily affected by the low RG. Is that a little clearer?

That is how I understood what you meant. I'm trying to take it a step further and maybe in error.. Since the Roll phase is not entered until the ball full "revs up" after starting the hook phase, and the Higher the RG, the longer it takes to rev up.... Is it true that the higher the RG the longer the ball stays in the hook phase. (since I'm assuming it hooks until it reaches the roll phase)

So Higher RG (after drilling) = more arcing shape. Lower RG (after drilling) = more angular.

[Amyers]

No, I am also saying that the three primary phases of ball motion are skid, hook, and roll, in that order. The laws of physics says that an object remains in motion, going in the same direction, until it is acted upon by an equal an opposing force (this is paraphrasing to help understanding). When the ball is released by the bowler, the main energy is the forward motion that is generated by the footwork and armswing. While the ball is also rotating as a result of the bowler's release, the rotational energy is less than the forward energy until friction between the ball and the lane surface causes the ball to slow slightly, allowing the rotational energy to become equal to the forward energy, and causing the ball to begin to change direction (hook). With this in mind, it is easy to see that more surface on the bowling ball allows more friction sooner, and earlier hook. The roll phase is reached when the ball fully "revs up." As the resistance or lack of resistance created by the low rg measurement determines how hard the ball has to work to fully rev up, it is the roll phase that is primarily affected by the low RG. Is that a little clearer?

This is clearer although I do believe my statement that Surface, RG, and Cover Strength in combination determine when the ball starts to roll is more accurate than simply stating that "the roll phase is primarily affected by the RG" you state yourself that " it is easy to see that more surface on the bowling ball allows more friction sooner, and earlier hook" it is the friction and I'll add cover strength or aggressiveness if you prefer determining when the roll phase actually begins not just the RG of the ball. I think we really need to learn to look at this holistically to get a better understanding of what ball motions we should really be looking to expect when we purchase a new ball.

[Mike White]

No, I am also saying that the three primary phases of ball motion are skid, hook, and roll, in that order. The laws of physics says that an object remains in motion, going in the same direction, until it is acted upon by an equal an opposing force (this is paraphrasing to help understanding). When the ball is released by the bowler, the main energy is the forward motion that is generated by the footwork and armswing. While the ball is also rotating as a result of the bowler's release, the rotational energy is less than the forward energy until friction between the ball and the lane surface causes the ball to slow slightly, allowing the rotational energy to become equal to the forward energy, and causing the ball to begin to change direction (hook). With this in mind, it is easy to see that more surface on the bowling ball allows more friction sooner, and earlier hook. The roll phase is reached when the ball fully "revs up." As the resistance or lack of resistance created by the low rg measurement determines how hard the ball has to work to fully rev up, it is the roll phase that is primarily affected by the low RG. Is that a little clearer?

Seems whenever you try to help understanding anything related to ball motion, you get it wrong.

an object remains in motion, going in the same direction, until it is acted upon by ANY force not inline with that motion.

A baseball pitcher throws a 100 mph fastball and the batter just barely makes contact with the ball.

Clearly the force the batter applied to the ball is much less than the pitcher, yet the ball changes direction.

Maybe it's just a foul tip, going a little up, or a little down, but it changed direction.

As soon as the bowling ball sees friction, it changes direction.

If the change of direction causes the ball to go back into a non friction area, the ball quits changing direction for a while.

Maybe the reason you think the ball doesn't hook until it's reved up is you've played so long on a walled up conditions.

[Amyers]

That is how I understood what you meant. I'm trying to take it a step further and maybe in error.. Since the Roll phase is not entered until the ball full "revs up" after starting the hook phase, and the Higher the RG, the longer it takes to rev up.... Is it true that the higher the RG the longer the ball stays in the hook phase. (since I'm assuming it hooks until it reaches the roll phase)

So Higher RG (after drilling) = more arcing shape. Lower RG (after drilling) = more angular.

It's the step farther where your going off course. You can easily find High RG balls that are angular and Low RG balls that are more arcing. I believe that Higher RG balls tended to be more of your skid/flip angular balls until recently. Now it seems either can fill that spot one of the issues with understanding modern bowling balls by trying to look at the numbers.

[Mike White]

"Using a smaller angle between the pin to PAP line and the VAL (minimum of 20º) will lower the RG and increase the total differential of the drilled ball. These changes will result in the ball revving up faster and transitioning quicker. Conversely, using a larger angle between the pin to PAP line and the VAL (maximum of approximately 70º) will raise the RG and lower the total differential of the drilled ball. These changes will result in the ball revving up and transitioning slower. "


From http://www.bowlingball.com/BowlVersi...yout-technique

The article when speaking about raising or lowering the RG with val angles, it's talking about the low RG of the ball, not the RG of the PAP.

On a symmetrical ball, the PIN to PAP distance selects the RG of the PAP, the drill angle, and the val angle don't change the RG of the pap.

On an asymmetrical ball, the PIN to PAP, and the drill angle select the RG of the PAP, not the VAL angle.

Obviously if you add an additional balance hole, you change the RG of the PAP.

[RobLV1]

This is clearer although I do believe my statement that Surface, RG, and Cover Strength in combination determine when the ball starts to roll is more accurate than simply stating that "the roll phase is primarily affected by the RG" you state yourself that " it is easy to see that more surface on the bowling ball allows more friction sooner, and earlier hook" it is the friction and I'll add cover strength or aggressiveness if you prefer determining when the roll phase actually begins not just the RG of the ball. I think we really need to learn to look at this holistically to get a better understanding of what ball motions we should really be looking to expect when we purchase a new ball.

I agree that getting a better understanding of ball motion is very important for all bowlers. The phases of ball motion happen very quickly and are very difficult to see. Communicating in short bursts about such a complex subject is difficult, if not nearly impossible. When I said that it is the roll phase that is primarily affect by the low rg, I was alluding to the fact that the low rg has little to do with when the hook phase begins, not that it is the only thing involved with determining when the ball begins to roll. I think that this is an important discussion for all of us who are interested in it, and I apologize if my involvement in it results in disparaging remarks from those who are only interested in being right about just about everything at the expense of the discussion.

[Amyers]

I agree that getting a better understanding of ball motion is very important for all bowlers. The phases of ball motion happen very quickly and are very difficult to see. Communicating in short bursts about such a complex subject is difficult, if not nearly impossible. When I said that it is the roll phase that is primarily affect by the low rg, I was alluding to the fact that the low rg has little to do with when the hook phase begins, not that it is the only thing involved with determining when the ball begins to roll. I think that this is an important discussion for all of us who are interested in it, and I apologize if my involvement in it results in disparaging remarks from those who are only interested in being right about just about everything at the expense of the discussion.

LOL This has been a great conversation and hopefully some who read this will at least pick up a few things to study up on myself included