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Thread: 10 Pin Leaves

  1. #1

    Default 10 Pin Leaves

    Yes, it's pretty frustrating. And honestly you really never know if you are going to knock down the 10 pin or not regardless of how good you hit the pocket. Hitting if flush will increase your chances of a strike but I've seen flush pocket hits that have left the 10 pin.

    One could take 20 video samples of pro bowlers (or anyone) rolling seemingly perfect pocket shots and freeze frame right before ball hits the pocket. 10 are strikes, 10 are 10-pin leaves. Of the 20 samples I would venture that most would not be able to correctly identify all of them correctly.

    Some times it's just back luck/pin carry.

  2. #2

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    Leaving the ten pin standing is never bad luck. It's a matter of entry angle and energy. If the angle is not correct, the result is a ringing ten. If the ball is not at it's peak in terms of energy when it enters the pocket, it's a weak ten. Ringing tens mean you are really close. Weak tens mean that you either need to move, or that you have the wrong ball in your hand.

  3. #3
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    weak hits leave 10 pins
    watch where your ball drops off the deck, the closer to the 10 pin, the less likely it will carry
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobLV1 View Post
    Leaving the ten pin standing is never bad luck. It's a matter of entry angle and energy. If the angle is not correct, the result is a ringing ten. If the ball is not at it's peak in terms of energy when it enters the pocket, it's a weak ten. Ringing tens mean you are really close. Weak tens mean that you either need to move, or that you have the wrong ball in your hand.
    This is logically incorrect.

    What makes you think that when a ball is at the peak, it's only barely able to carry the 10 pin, while anything short of the peak will leave a weak 10.

    Reality shows that the "peak" can be well beyond what is required to carry the 10 pin, and plenty below the peak will carry the 10 pin as well.

    You've stated that my ball never rolls, and also stated that the ball isn't at it's peak unless it's rolling.

    Therefore logically you're saying I never carry a 10 pin.
    Last edited by Mike White; 07-01-2015 at 05:30 PM.

  5. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike White View Post
    This is logically incorrect.

    What makes you think that when a ball is at the peak, it's only barely able to carry the 10 pin, while anything short of the peak will leave a weak 10.

    Reality shows that the "peak" can be well beyond what is required to carry the 10 pin, and plenty below the peak will carry the 10 pin as well.

    You've stated that my ball never rolls, and also stated that the ball isn't at it's peak unless it's rolling.

    Therefore logically you're saying I never carry a 10 pin.
    Mike, please stop trying to make everything personal. It's not. My point is that ten pin leaves are not bad luck. They are caused by something. Once again you are bumping into trees and not seeing the forest. The forest is the fact that ten pins are not bad luck. The tree is that you don't agree with the detail that I had about 60 seconds to write to help someone understand something. I'm not trying to degrade you, regardless of how much you try to degrade me. I think that you are a pretty good bowler who may be able to become great if you would just put away your opinions and learn to use modern equipment. Think about the bowlers who we, as bowlers with more experience, are trying to help and put the pettiness aside. PLEASE!

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    Quote Originally Posted by RobLV1 View Post
    Mike, please stop trying to make everything personal. It's not. My point is that ten pin leaves are not bad luck. They are caused by something. Once again you are bumping into trees and not seeing the forest. The forest is the fact that ten pins are not bad luck. The tree is that you don't agree with the detail that I had about 60 seconds to write to help someone understand something. I'm not trying to degrade you, regardless of how much you try to degrade me. I think that you are a pretty good bowler who may be able to become great if you would just put away your opinions and learn to use modern equipment. Think about the bowlers who we, as bowlers with more experience, are trying to help and put the pettiness aside. PLEASE!
    If you are trying to help people, you might start by not being wrong so often.

    The 10 pin not being bad luck fits your believe system, but your reasoning only works for a subset of reality.

    How consistent is a human supposed to be at 60 feet? 1 inch? 2 inches?, inside of that range, even a good shot can leave a 10 pin.

    That's just bad luck, because any type of adjustment and it's more likely to get worse than better.

    I guess you just don't understand the game of bowling before the advent of wall bowling.

  7. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike White View Post
    If you are trying to help people, you might start by not being wrong so often.

    The 10 pin not being bad luck fits your believe system, but your reasoning only works for a subset of reality.

    How consistent is a human supposed to be at 60 feet? 1 inch? 2 inches?, inside of that range, even a good shot can leave a 10 pin.

    That's just bad luck, because any type of adjustment and it's more likely to get worse than better.

    I guess you just don't understand the game of bowling before the advent of wall bowling.
    You are just being pessimistic here. It is not luck whether a ten pin falls or not. You either made the good shot that will cause it to fall or you didn't. Is it easy to repeat that shot or even find exactly where you need to be to hit the sweet spot? No, but there is zero luck involved in bowling. Luck is a human created concept. In reality, it is all comes down to how the ball hits the pins or doesn't hit them. It's not at all random as to when a certain pin falls over. If you really want to disprove this, get a 240fps camera, and set it up above the pin deck.

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    Quote Originally Posted by John Anderson View Post
    You are just being pessimistic here. It is not luck whether a ten pin falls or not. You either made the good shot that will cause it to fall or you didn't. Is it easy to repeat that shot or even find exactly where you need to be to hit the sweet spot? No, but there is zero luck involved in bowling. Luck is a human created concept. In reality, it is all comes down to how the ball hits the pins or doesn't hit them. It's not at all random as to when a certain pin falls over. If you really want to disprove this, get a 240fps camera, and set it up above the pin deck.
    Read a little on Chaos Theory, then re-read what you just typed.

    Everything is changing from shot to shot.

    Pins being off spot, even within tolerance, oil being moved or removed, are you off by 1/2 a revolution.

    All kinds of things can change the results of a shot.

    If the cause is not of your doing, and there wasn't a way for you to be aware of it before the shot, it's bad luck.

    Ball manufacturers want you to get another ball to solve the problem.

    Personally, I try to repeat the same shot if I leave a ringing 10 pin, and choose a wider path to the pocket on a flat 10.

    For me, flat 10 pins usually mean I came in contact with too much oil on the way down the lane.

  9. #9
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    Here we go again I knew this was coming as soon as I first seen this post. Here's the way I see it in a perfect world there is no tap in bowling if we had pinpoint accuracy and in finance knowledge of the balls path then we would never see a 10 pin leave. When you consider that your throwing a round object at rounded objects over a surface that is constantly changing luck does become involved.

    When you leave a weak 10 odds are good that's it more than bad luck believe me I see this d*** pin enough. Ringing 10's luck is a little more of it. Now does this mean that it was a perfect shot and you just got screwed? No something happened that caused it most of the time if it's within our human error quotient is the question. The truth is most of us our doing good to have +- 1 board accuracy (probably giving most of us too much credit), .5 accuracy in ball speed, and I have no idea the typical variance on how many revs most of us have shot to shot but I can promise you it's less than exact.

    We all need to explore our games by trying different balls, lines, and hand positions to maximize our potential. We should never accept that any leave that's happening repeatedly is just bad luck. We should also realize when we are performing to the best of our abilities take are 9/ and figure out a solution for the long term. This long term solution is what I'm in search of now. Believing that it's just bad luck if it's happening repeatedly will be detrimental to your game.
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Anderson View Post
    You are just being pessimistic here. It is not luck whether a ten pin falls or not. You either made the good shot that will cause it to fall or you didn't. Is it easy to repeat that shot or even find exactly where you need to be to hit the sweet spot? No, but there is zero luck involved in bowling. Luck is a human created concept. In reality, it is all comes down to how the ball hits the pins or doesn't hit them. It's not at all random as to when a certain pin falls over. If you really want to disprove this, get a 240fps camera, and set it up above the pin deck.
    As for the camera, measure how accurate a person is at 15 feet, and on those same shots, how accurate they are at 55 feet.

    On a THS, you'll find they are more accurate at 55 feet.

    It's that wall of oil guiding the ball that increases the accuracy.

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