Side to Side vs. Front to Back

[Mike White]

Thank you so much, Mike, for hijacking this thread. Here's the deal: modern reactive balls are not going away, and the USBC is not going to start mandating real lane conditions as long as they are sharing a breakroom with the BPAA guys in Arlington. Rather than lamenting the passing of "real" bowling, how about allowing me to help the people who want to improve using modern balls and the lane conditions that they have to play. Learning how to use modern aggressive bowling balls is not difficult, if one is willing to accept the fact that things have changed and bowlers have to change to keep up.

This thread was just another of your rants on people not moving.

The problem with the modern game is when you have success, was it really you, or like in miniature golf, the hole designer.

[Aslan]

I don't know if this is relevant or not...but:

I bowl with an older gentleman on Wednesdays and EVERY SINGLE WEEK....I listen to him complain that he can't even get his plastic ball to stay right of the headpin. Now...you might be thinking...is that guy MWhite?? Well, while MWhite has also made that comment on numerous occasions...this is a different gentleman with a lot less skill and experience....and his problems are not the same as Mike's problems...even if they end with the same result.

Mike has an excessively high rev rate. Much like thumbless or palm bowlers...he spins the cover off the ball...and "hopes" that there is enough oil out there that his ball won't miss the pocket. And he's experienced enough and confident enough in his game...that he can make small adjustments and use very weak equipment...and usually find success. Add to that, he's an exceptionally good spare shooter...so even when the reaction isn't there....he can still score well.

The older guy on my Wednesday team is much less experienced...and has bought into the idea that the best way to win is to get the biggest hooking, top-of-the-line, most aggressive ball. The PROBLEM is...his ball speed is about 7-9mph...sometimes dipping into the 6mph range. He's an old guy...very little speed on the approach...and virtually no ability to increase that speed. So every Wednesday...he goes through nearly every ball in his 4 bags (he brings 4 triple-ball rollers each night)...until he's finally throwing a Hammer True Blood polyester ball...and STILL missing left.

This is why you often hear, Rob close your eyes, "straighter is great". True...TRUE....MANY bowlers (including myself) tend to use it as an excuse for not developing a higher rev release....but there is also is some truth to it. And what I'm calling "straighter" could also be considered "less revs" or "more speed". The bottom line is...if you're missing left, and you can't ball down anymore...and you can't move left to find more oil...then you have to do something very, very difficult...you have to change the WAY you throw the ball. Just like I continue to try to find more revs and better axis tilt/rotation...because I just can't seem to get back to the pocket on medium-heavy/long conditions. Similarly, if you're missing left...you need LESS revs or MORE speed. It's simple physics. The lanes are a huge factor and the balls add their factors to the equation...but at the end of the day Mike needs to find a way to make his shot faster OR he needs to reduce his rev rate. The guy I bowl with on Wednesdays...he can't increase speed at his age...either with his feet or his upper body. But he CAN move left...and he CAN stop trying to throw Gurus and other high hook balls. But he won't. Because he's old...and old people are generally stubborn people. The whole "old dog, new trick" thing.

But when your game...relies too heavily on equipment, easy lane conditions, and/or rev rate...you are much more vulnerable to lane conditions than the person that throws straight at the pocket or out and in. "Aslan vs. MWhite" is a perfect example. I've defeated him in head-to-head battles 3 out of 4 times. BUT....he outbowled me EVERY week of the sport pattern league. How is that so? Because on a sport shot or on the fresh oil in Vegas...I can't get my ball to move....I have to throw straighter....I have to play far to the outside...I have to do anything I can to stay away from the oil...and that leads to straighter shots and/or burnt up shots. BUT....on drier conditions...if I can find the oil line...and got a little miss room to the right and left...not only can I start to get to that pocket with power...but even more important...MWhite's game is completely destroyed. He'll be over by the left gutter throwing a polyester ball and leaving splits. If he can ever figure out a way to LOSE 100rpms...I might be in trouble. On the flipside, if I ever can figure out how to get to 300rpms...he might be in trouble!

But, and Rob can appreciate this given his career and past career....much of our success/failure depends not on our ability...but our willingness to adapt and learn. I'm not 100% buying the idea that modern balls are all that...certainly not nearly to the extent that the ball manufacturers want us to believe...and I'm confused about all kinds of stuff (even if I don't sound like it). I don't understand "burning up". I don't understand what makes a core "strong" vs "weaker". I don't understand cover stock technology details. I can't begin to tell you the difference from house to house in terms of one type of material versus another type of material. And while I'm trying to learn as much as I can about ball specs....I still don't understand how certain bowling ball attributes don't cancel each other out. But...I AM willing to learn. And that gives me an advantage. Bowlers...more than any other sport....are about the least adaptive athletes on the planet. They've been bowling for 40 years and they'll be damned if they're gonna change. Just give them a magic ball that works with their way of throwing it...and give them a house where that shot plays well. That's what they want. And the USBC/BPAA....they know that...they know what bowlers want....and they're smart enough, like politicians, to give people what they want.

In retrospect...that might have had little to do with the original topic...but when I started...I was going somewhere with it and kinda forgot midway through.

[NewToBowling]

I think we need a Rob vs Mike sub forum

[RobLV1]

Aslan: You are absolutely correct when you talk about success depending less on our ability and more on our willingness to adapt and learn. Many bowlers are just terrified of the thought of learning something new.

Mike: I'm sorry you feel that this is just another of my "rants on people not moving." Every time I bowl I hear long time bowlers who are frustrated because they keep hearing about how easy house lane conditions are, but they can't seem to improve. 90% of the time, it's because they don't even consider playing anywhere but the second arrow. I will continue to try and help bowlers to improve, regardless of how many times I have to say the same thing. All I can say is that it's hard to describe the look of happy astonishment the first time a bowler works up the nerve to play in around the third arrow and sees the difference in his ball reaction as well as his ability to carry the corner pins. It doesn't happen nearly often enough, but when it does it makes my efforts as a coach totally worthwhile.

[Mike White]

I think we need a Rob vs Mike sub forum

Rob won't back up the things he says.

He is under the impression you are supposed to just take what he says as fact.

In this thread he commented about the 220 bowler who didn't like the 37' pattern.

Rob says it's because if the 220 bowler missed to the right on a 37' pattern his ball will "burn up".

However logically, if the same bowler missed to the right on a 40' pattern the ball will "burn up" just the same.

So that clearly can't be the real reason, but Rob doesn't look that deep into the issue.

Notice Rob ignored everything that disputes what he thinks are "facts".

[RobLV1]

Mike: What I initially said was, "To illustrate, I was practicing with a couple of friends this morning and one of them, a 220 average house bowler, commented that he really doesn't like to bowl at this particular house (house B) because the lanes are much drier than they are at house A where he prefers to bowl. Here's the issue: house B doesn't use less oil than house A, they put the oil down using a 37' house pattern, rather than a 40' pattern like house A. This results in misses to the right burning up early and not getting back to the pocket, or arriving DOA leaving weak tens, and misses left not finding extra oil like they do on the 40' pattern and hooking through the nose.

The things that I see, time and time again are what I interpret as "facts." Please note that you totally ignored, or just didn't understand that part about misses left not finding extra oil like they do on the 40' pattern. Once again, I will tell you that I am just trying to help the people on this forum. I will also say, once again, that when I think you are wrong, I just don't say anything rather than trying to attack you. Please, Mike, stop this juvenile nonsense, and think about what you are doing to the bowlers who come to this forum to learn something. If you don't agree with me, fine. I really don't care. The bowlers that come to me for coaching improve. That's what I care about. I really don't understand your need to constantly attack me, but, truthfully, it's getting pretty tiresome. Let the people who come here for help decide for themselves. There's plenty of room on this planet for both of us.

[bowl1820]

This happens because the bowler never changes the line he plays.

This makes me think back years ago when i first went to Kegel.

They (I think it was Shockley at the time.) were talking about lane conditions and moving and changing from the old ways of playing the lanes.

They told us a story about a phone call they got (and they recorded it) the day after some PBA tournament, where they either just started oiling for the PBA or started some new oiling program I don't remember right offhand.

He didn't say who it was that called, just that it was "the man from Kokomo". So of course everyone knew who that was (That's Don Johnson for those that don't know the Kokomo reference.).

He told us about how Don went ballistic for 15-20 minutes on how they changed the pattern, he didn't have a shot and what a bunch @#$%&*^% they were.

And the point he was making by telling us this, was that Don didn't or couldn't make a change. He played the same lines on the lanes and used the same style he always did. Like he did when using urethane and plastic on the older patterns and how now you have you move etc. etc.

[Jessiewoodard57]

I can see where Rob is coming from. If you are missing left or right you need to be prepared to move with your feet or your ball to correct the shot. Also when lane conditions begin to break down you need to be prepared to change to meet the need. Also I appreciate any advice that will make me less frustrated.

Aslan , 12 BOWLING BALLS wow how does he have time to go through them before the league games are over? I put 2 on the return, my Crux Pearl and my Ride. Rarely will I go to my Taboo Spare ball.

[fortheloveofbowling]

This makes me think back years ago when i first went to Kegel.

They (I think it was Shockley at the time.) were talking about lane conditions and moving and changing from the old ways of playing the lanes.

They told us a story about a phone call they got (and they recorded it) the day after some PBA tournament, where they either just started oiling for the PBA or started some new oiling program I don't remember right offhand.

He didn't say who it was that called, just that it was "the man from Kokomo". So of course everyone knew who that was (That's Don Johnson for those that don't know the Kokomo reference.).

He told us about how Don went ballistic for 15-20 minutes on how they changed the pattern, he didn't have a shot and what a bunch @#$%&*^% they were.

And the point he was making by telling us this, was that Don didn't or couldn't make a change. He played the same lines on the lanes and used the same style he always did. Like he did when using urethane and plastic on the older patterns and how now you have you move etc. etc.

I pretty sure Don Johnson could make adjustments. What is not talked about as far as lane conditions in the 60's, 70's, 80's is that many times conditions and lane topography would completely shut out large portions of the field. That was a huge struggle for the lane maintenance crews to put out equitable patterns to identify the best shot makers for the week.

[bowl1820]

I pretty sure Don Johnson could make adjustments. .

That's the thing, at the time that happened (I don't know the date, it happened long before I heard the story, it was some pba senior tournament I think) he wasn't making the adjustment to the newer shots. Conditions were changing and they didn't suit his style of bowling, so he wanted them put back the way they were.

That was a huge struggle for the lane maintenance crews to put out equitable patterns to identify the best shot makers for the week.

While for the most part the crew tried to put out equitable patterns back then. From what I've heard from the guys that bowled them back in the day, it was well known that if they didn't want someone to qualify they would set the lanes up to shut those players out.


The point they were trying to make was similar to what Rob was referring to, about bowlers not changing the lines or how they play them when on different conditions.

Don Johnson was a great bowler for his time and could play anywhere on the lanes. But the times changed and his squared up style was disappearing. The more open shoulder bowlers were coming along, the newer conditions and balls were taking over. if he had been younger I'm sure he could have changed with them.