Had our winter meeting and they actually changed something.

[bowl1820]

There is nothing wrong with that rule, it's the answer to the commonly asked question.

If you think the ability for the league to over-ride "is" included in both, then all I can do is suggest you see if a local college has a class similar to https://www.coursera.org/course/intrologic that you can take.

You're parsing the sentence is incorrectly.

The quoted commonly asked question is in regard to rule 104a Team Captain’s Authority under the USBC's general league rules and would apply to all league types, unless otherwise noted. It's About the question of if the captain can change lineup from game to game under those rules.

The CAQ says:

Yes, The captain can change lineup from game to game. (This applies to any league.)

Unless:

It is a match point league. ( Which means you can't change lineup from game to game in that league type.)
(now here they could have added, that you need to check rule "100k. Match Point" for the limits on changing lineups and other rules in that league type. So that it would be clear on what you could or could not do on that league.)

or

there is a league rule to the contrary. (this applies to any league type.)
(So if any league makes a rule that says you can't change lineup from game to game. then you can't)

[Tony]

The rule is still there, they didn't drop it. Also you don't repeat the process for the 2nd & 3rd games. You hold the lineup for the series.

Unless the league adopts a different procedure.

USBC 2015-20116 rule book, page 28
100k. Match Point
A match point league is one in which team position standings include individual match points. Match
point leagues must follow these rules, unless the league has adopted a different procedure:
1. The team scheduled on the odd lane enters its lineup first.
2. No change may be made in the order of players in the lineup during a series. A substitute must take
the replaced bowler’s position in the lineup.
3. When bowling against an absentee or vacancy, to win the individual points the bowler must bowl at
least his/her average less ten (10) pins, unless the league rules have stated another number.
4. If each team has the same number of absentees and/or vacancies, the players present must be
placed in opposition to each other for individual matches and the winning team credited with the
points for the absentees/vacancies.
If one of two teams has an absentee or vacancy and a player on the opposing team is unable to
complete the series, any game in progress shall be completed with no change in the competing team’s
lineup. However, the lineup of the team that lost its player must be changed if necessary, to comply
with the provision of Item 4 above for any subsequent game(s) in the series.

We did follow item 3 and 4 with vacant bowlers and 2 as well, number 1 was regularly violated ....as I recall no special rules being enacted by our league. Several of the teams always wanted the opposing team to do their lineup first so they could match up irregardless of the lane they were on.

[bowl1820]

We did follow item 3 and 4 with vacant bowlers and 2 as well, number 1 was regularly violated ....as I recall no special rules being enacted by our league. Several of the teams always wanted the opposing team to do their lineup first so they could match up irregardless of the lane they were on.

That's the thing about rules, if they don't enforce them. They don't mean much.

[Mike White]

The quoted commonly asked question is in regard to rule 104a Team Captain’s Authority under the USBC's general league rules and would apply to all league types, unless otherwise noted. It's About the question of if the captain can change lineup from game to game under those rules.

The CAQ says:

Yes, The captain can change lineup from game to game. (This applies to any league.)

Unless:

It is a match point league. ( Which means you can't change lineup from game to game in that league type.)
(now here they could have added, that you need to check rule "100k. Match Point" for the limits on changing lineups and other rules in that league type. So that it would be clear on what you could or could not do on that league.)

Ok, you see the missing part, and without that part, as long as it's a match point league, the captain would not be allowed to change the lineup

or

there is a league rule to the contrary. (this applies to any league type.)
(So if any league makes a rule that says you can't change lineup from game to game. then you can't)

This logically doesn't apply to a match point league because if the match point league didn't want lineups to change, they wouldn't need to make a league specific rule, it's already the default rule.

The only league specific rule in regards to changing lineups that a match point league could have, is allowing lineup changes.

The CAQ is poorly written, and does not follow the actual rules.

So again, you quoting the poorly written CAQ in post #13.... what is your point?

Maybe it wasn't clear from my post #10, I was referring to the rules in a match point league I had bowled in 30+ years ago.

In my early 20's, I wasn't interested in the politics of bowling, just turn the lights on so we can go kick some butt.

[John Anderson]

After reading through all this, all I can say is thank god I don't bowl with you guys in a league. Rules for a league should be defined at the beginning before it starts and that's it. No arguing necessary.

[Mike White]

After reading through all this, all I can say is thank god I don't bowl with you guys in a league. Rules for a league should be defined at the beginning before it starts and that's it. No arguing necessary.

That is the goal, but occasionally rules can be created, agreed upon and still be somewhat ambiguous.

[bowl1820]

Ok, you see the missing part, and without that part, as long as it's a match point league, the captain would not be allowed to change the lineup

This logically doesn't apply to a match point league because if the match point league didn't want lineups to change, they wouldn't need to make a league specific rule, it's already the default rule.

The only league specific rule in regards to changing lineups that a match point league could have, is allowing lineup changes.

The CAQ is poorly written, and does not follow the actual rules.

So again, you quoting the poorly written CAQ in post #13.... what is your point?

The CAQ may be poorly worded, but it's not that unclear.

The capt. can change lineup game to game in any league, except in a match point league. Unless a league rule stating otherwise.

As for it "logically doesn't apply to a match point", It didn't say it was referring to a match point league in the first place (and it pointed out it wasn't match point leagues. It was in regard to rule 104a Team Captain’s Authority and other leagues.

And I already stated my point, the CAQ was just to show, That the ability to change lineup from game to game in other league types was allowed.

Maybe it wasn't clear from my post #10, I was referring to the rules in a match point league I had bowled in 30+ years ago.

I had guessed that's what it was.

In my early 20's, I wasn't interested in the politics of bowling, just turn the lights on so we can go kick some butt.

That describes most bowlers, especially younger ones. They don't bother to read the rules, until someone tells them they can't do something and/or something doesn't go their way. (or theres the one's know the rules, but that don't care if the rules are being followed, as long as everything is going their way.)

[bowl1820]

After reading through all this, all I can say is thank god I don't bowl with you guys in a league. Rules for a league should be defined at the beginning before it starts and that's it. No arguing necessary.

The rules for the most part are defined at the beginning, But it's matter of interpretation after that.

No matter how clearly you try make the rules or try to make rules cover all the bases, someone is either not going to understand them or try interpret them in a way to benefit themselves or something will come up you never thought about.

Where as Mike wasn't interested in the politics of bowling. I was league president for several years and had to wade through this stuff several times.

Like having a team talking about wanting to post bowl after the end of the season, to make up week 1 of bowling they missed. (They were close to the top and those points could have made a difference.). and USBC rules gives you till 7 days after the end of the season to post bowl. Unless the league sets their own time limit rule.

If I remember right the point became moot at the end, a post bowl wouldn't have changed anything so didn't happen. (Plus the postponement committee didn't approve it anyway.)

But the next season we had a time limit put in.