I NEVER WANT TO MISS A TEN pin AGAIN

[Aslan]

What skill level is required to never leave a 10 pin?

What skill level is required to bowl consistent 900 series?

Somehow you think the skill level required to never miss a 10 pin is even higher?

Pro level bowlers when they bowl...what happens 90% of the time? STRIKE of 10-pin (for righties and most people are righties). I've seen matches where all the pro bowler leaves are 10-pins....everything else is a strike.

So, from that standpoint...10-pins are sometimes left because of very minor, tiny, incremental things....like a pin spot...or 0.2mph speed difference...or < 1 board miss...etc...

So yeah, if you're an elite bowler...bowling no-tap...I'm thinking a 900 series is not gonna be that scarce...because no tap takes the 10-pin out of the equation. But in standard bowling (non-no-tap)...you're going to leave corner pins....even when you repeat your shot in some cases....even when you hit pocket. It's inevitable.

[Aslan]

According to stats from ESPN the PBA first ball strike was 61 % and 10 pin conversion was 96% , this was a couple of years ago .... certainly a much better chance to convert 100 % of your 10 pins over a given time than shoot 300 games.

TRUE...but that wasn't my comparison. I was comparing striking 36 times in a row versus never leaving a 10-pin.

Whats more likely? A 900 Series OR....

....going a series and not leaving a corner pin?
....going a month and not leaving a corner pin?
....going a year and not leaving a corner pin?

How many 300 games at the WSOB? How many 800 series? How many players can say they bowled even 6 games straight and never left a corner pin?

See my point?

And as to Iceman's question about how to become even more Gifted than he is (some states refer to gifted as "special")...he's making a common mistake...one that I made early on...and so have numerous others....and that fallacy is the belief that a hooking ball at a 10-pin (for a righty) gives you some kind of "miss room". Everyone likes to picture that time the ball almost went in the gutter but grabbed just enough to hit the pin....yet these same people have completely blocked out all the times they missed by an inch or two left because the ball hooked just a tiny bit.

[Amyers]

TRUE...but that wasn't my comparison. I was comparing striking 36 times in a row versus never leaving a 10-pin.

Whats more likely? A 900 Series OR....

....going a series and not leaving a corner pin?
....going a month and not leaving a corner pin?
....going a year and not leaving a corner pin?

How many 300 games at the WSOB? How many 800 series? How many players can say they bowled even 6 games straight and never left a corner pin?

See my point?

And as to Iceman's question about how to become even more Gifted than he is (some states refer to gifted as "special")...he's making a common mistake...one that I made early on...and so have numerous others....and that fallacy is the belief that a hooking ball at a 10-pin (for a righty) gives you some kind of "miss room". Everyone likes to picture that time the ball almost went in the gutter but grabbed just enough to hit the pin....yet these same people have completely blocked out all the times they missed by an inch or two left because the ball hooked just a tiny bit.

Exactly true

[NewToBowling]

I picked up a spare ball for the sole purpose of picking up 10 pin and 6-10 spares. I used to use my strike ball but more times than not it hooked too much to be really effective. I still use my strike ball for all other spares though

[Tony]

I was using a plastic spare ball but would miss the 10 way too often. My strike ball is a Storm Crux Pearl but it has also become my spare ball especially for the 6, 10 and 10 pin spares. I approach is at the 39 board and roll it across at the 15th board more times then not it makes the turn and rolls perfectly straight down the 2,3 board. ( by the way learned that one from someone here)

Whatever works the best for you is the thing to do, I used to do the same thing, and when I was on I got them all, but when I was off missed them all. The reason I ended up getting a spare ball was when I started using the hyper cell skid ball, no matter what I tried the ball would hook away from the 10 pin at the last second and I was missing way too many.
After some dedicated practice I have found if I hit my mark the plastic ball gets the 10 every time !
Funny thing yesterday I was at a ball demo and the guy in front of me kept leaving 10 pins and didn't want to shoot at them...the reset was not working so I shot a few for him, never missed once and I was using a Guru Master ....tons of hook, guess it was one of those on days !

[Tony]

TRUE...but that wasn't my comparison. I was comparing striking 36 times in a row versus never leaving a 10-pin.

Whats more likely? A 900 Series OR....

....going a series and not leaving a corner pin?
....going a month and not leaving a corner pin?
....going a year and not leaving a corner pin?

How many 300 games at the WSOB? How many 800 series? How many players can say they bowled even 6 games straight and never left a corner pin?

See my point?

And as to Iceman's question about how to become even more Gifted than he is (some states refer to gifted as "special")...he's making a common mistake...one that I made early on...and so have numerous others....and that fallacy is the belief that a hooking ball at a 10-pin (for a righty) gives you some kind of "miss room". Everyone likes to picture that time the ball almost went in the gutter but grabbed just enough to hit the pin....yet these same people have completely blocked out all the times they missed by an inch or two left because the ball hooked just a tiny bit.

I do see your point, I was just looking for a solution that matched what Ice wanted... I am throwing a spare ball at 10's 6-10 and have found when I hit my mark I make 100% of the shots, I am practicing and getting better and better at hitting it. I will certainly hit more 10 pins this way than I ever did throwing a strike ball at it.
I am going to suggest ice throw a plastic ball between the legs at all 10 pins from now on !

[Mike White]

Pro level bowlers when they bowl...what happens 90% of the time? STRIKE of 10-pin (for righties and most people are righties). I've seen matches where all the pro bowler leaves are 10-pins....everything else is a strike.

So, from that standpoint...10-pins are sometimes left because of very minor, tiny, incremental things....like a pin spot...or 0.2mph speed difference...or < 1 board miss...etc...

So yeah, if you're an elite bowler...bowling no-tap...I'm thinking a 900 series is not gonna be that scarce...because no tap takes the 10-pin out of the equation. But in standard bowling (non-no-tap)...you're going to leave corner pins....even when you repeat your shot in some cases....even when you hit pocket. It's inevitable.

I think statistics show that approximately 60% of first ball shots result in strikes.

Of the 40% that don't, 25% result in the lone 10 pin, or 10% of all first ball attempts result in the lone 10 pin.

That would mean that 70% result in strike or 10 pin, instead of 90% you estimate.

Your comparison was:

"There is no way to never miss a 10-pin....unless you never leave one or bowl consistent 900 series."

Let say a bowler has stats of 60% success rate at throwing strikes, 90% success rate at not leaving a 10 pin, 95% success rate at making the lone 10 pin spare.

What is that bowlers chance at going a full series and achieving each of the three things you are comparing.

1) never miss a 10 pin.. in 30 frames, the bowler will on average leave 3 lone 10 pins. At a 95% success rate per attempt, the bowler has a 0.95^3 = 85.7% chance of completing the series without a missed 10 pin.
2) never leave a 10 pin.. At a 90% success rate per attempt, the bowler has a 0.9^30 = 4.2% chance of completing the series without leaving a 10 pin.
3) bowl consistent 900.. At a 60% succes rate per attempt, the bowlers has a 0.6^36 = .0000001% chance of completing a series of 900.

Clearly to achieve #3, or even #2 is going to take a lot more skill than #1.

[Mike White]

TRUE...but that wasn't my comparison. I was comparing striking 36 times in a row versus never leaving a 10-pin.

Whats more likely? A 900 Series OR....

....going a series and not leaving a corner pin?
....going a month and not leaving a corner pin?
....going a year and not leaving a corner pin?

How many 300 games at the WSOB? How many 800 series? How many players can say they bowled even 6 games straight and never left a corner pin?

See my point?

And as to Iceman's question about how to become even more Gifted than he is (some states refer to gifted as "special")...he's making a common mistake...one that I made early on...and so have numerous others....and that fallacy is the belief that a hooking ball at a 10-pin (for a righty) gives you some kind of "miss room". Everyone likes to picture that time the ball almost went in the gutter but grabbed just enough to hit the pin....yet these same people have completely blocked out all the times they missed by an inch or two left because the ball hooked just a tiny bit.

What you describe above is not the comparison you were making before.

"There is no way to never miss a 10-pin....unless you never leave one or bowl consistent 900 series."

Yes it's difficult to never leave a ten pin,
Yes it's difficult to never not strike.

But what you claimed was more difficult was to never miss a 10 pin spare attempt.

So no, we don't see your point.

And as odd as you may think it, when you hook the ball from left to right at the 10 pin, the 10 pin becomes a wider target. Controlling that hook however is more difficult.

If there is enough help from the wall of oil, it may be easier, only one way to know for sure.

With Iceman wanting to try something different, and people saying he should use the Norm Duke, or Walter Ray style, those people should stop and think about history.

Before either of those two came along, someone else was the best spare shooter, so should Norm and Walter have been told to copy that person, or was it better that they develop their own style that ended up being even better?

[Amyers]

Before either of those two came along, someone else was the best spare shooter, so should Norm and Walter have been told to copy that person, or was it better that they develop their own style that ended up being even better?

I don't think anyone suggested that Ice completely copy Norm or Walter Ray. The point was that he would be more likely to find success if took points from thier style to incorporate into his game would be more likely to have success than trying to develop an very unusual style that will be unlikely to be better than the traditional method.

Most above average bowlers can make the pin 80-95% of the time so it's not like it's an impossible shot or anything. It is possible there is something in Ice's style that prevents his making the shot. If so trying something else maybe best but unless he has exhausted all the other possibilities I wouldn't suggest this method.

Ice is a grown man an perfectly capable of making his own decisions you've informed him of ball options if chooses to follow that path. Other have stated perfectly reasonable reasons why not to do this. As always it's up to the bowler to decide.

[jlwonderley]

Every ball I drilled for a backup bowler was for a female,

For them, their span was a little longer than I would have used compared to a "normal" release.

If you watch someone who regularly throws a backup, you will see they let go of the ball well after the ball passes their ankle....

Yes! I don't own a plastic ball. I throw a straight release and never really though about it before. You are right, I do have a late release when throwing straight at the 10 pin, out past the ankle, and with a little bit of loft sometimes. I start with my wrist "broken back" too.

You've just made me realize why it's starting hooking away a bit recently, and I couldn't seem to get it have a completely forward spin anymore. It's cause I've stopped delaying the release on my 10 pins anymore, although why I'll have to figure out.