Bowling Ball Progression Issues

[Aslan]

Thought I'd nerd it up a bit because I'm having a bit of an issue with my arsenal prgression and then I read Rob's article from April 2015 on BTM and I thought I'd throw this out there:

Right now I have:
Brunswick Lethal Revolver, solid, symmetric, RG = 2.547. 0.054 diff.
Columbia300 Dark Encounter, solid, asymmetric, RG = 2.50, 0.052 diff.
RotoGrip Asylum; symmetric, hybrid, RG = 2.50, 0.043 diff.

Now, there is also a high RG Pearl but it's still at the pro shop so I left it out of the comparison.

Now, when I put this together....I thought the Dark Encounter would be the strongest ball. It has a solid cover, a powerful core, a low RG of 2.50, and using PerfectScale as a reference, has the highest rating at 209.9.

I had the Lethal Revolver as #2 as it also had a solid cover, but was a symmetric core, and a much higher RG...and for reference...it was slightly lower on the PerfectScale at 209.5.

That left the Asylum at #3 with a hybrid cover, and much lower PerfectScale rating...a much lower Diff. as well and a symmetric core. The PROBLEM is...it has a more advanced cover (it's much newer technology) and a low RG of 2.50.

So...if we believe that the cover is the #1 factor...and we also believe that lower RG hooks sooner....then Columbia DE is #1 and Le. Revolver #2, and despite the RG....the coverstock wins and the Asylum is #3.

If we believe you set up the arsenal based on RG and core strength....then it's Columbia DE, Asylum, and the high RG Le. Revolver as #3.

The coach set my progression as Le. Revolver, D. Encounter, and Asylum. The reasoning was simply that Brunswicks hook way more than Columbia. I thought that was rather alarming...because thats not a specification I can measure or quantify. But, if you look at the PerfectScale comparison....it somewhat explains why the weaker core and higher RG Le. Revolver is practically the same PerfectScale value as the D. Encounter.

Thats the technical specifics/background. How are they behaving on the lanes???

The Lethal Revolver is clearly #1 in terms of strength. It has a very angular backend, which I've had to get used to. I don't know if it hooks sooner or later than the other 2 balls....but I know it hooks more sharply and aggressively and covers more boards.

I've been balling down to the Dark Encounter...but have found that it gives me very little angle...I often have to at LEAST move right 2 boards with my feet and target...sometimes as much as 3 boards with my eyes and 4 with my feet just because otherwise the cover simply cannot grab the lane. Since I can't swing it out very far...it becomes a ball to just play the oil line and hope for carry....which it is NOT good with. Lots of pocket hits that don't strike.

Then we get to the Asylum. I can't just ball down to the Asylum and maybe move 1:1 right. If I try to play the same line as the D. Encounter...I end up missing left as the Asylum bites more at the end of the pattern...or I end up hitting light as the Asylum skids through the oil line looking for friction and hooks too late.

In order to optimize the Asylum, I actually have to move my target out to the right (1.5 boards) while bringing my feet left (3.5 boards). I actually need to change the angle to account not only for the lane breakdown, but also for the fact/hypothesis that the Asylum pound for pound is probably stronger than the D. Encounter. And thats AFTER the Asylum had a small balance hole drilled in it to weaken it a bit AND after taking a 1500 pad to the Dark Encounter to try and give it some more bite.

But, as I mentioned in my scores thread...the good news is I'm starting to break out of defined, specific systems for movement and starting to actually read the pattern.

[RobLV1]

Once you learn that there is more to ball selection than just how much they hook, the easier it will be to understand. Often times, the most aggressive ball on a given lane condition is the one that stores the most energy for the backend. I'm impressed that you are factoring in the age of the ball and the technology issue. I would really like to see you get away from the whole weak ball, strong ball thing, and just look at them as being different; reading different parts of the lane. I would also like to see you get away from the idea that putting more surface on the ball gives it more bite. It's true in the oil, but that same surface will make the ball die in the friction, making it seem "weaker." Finally, the Perfect Scale is a crutch for those bowlers who are afraid to learn about the components of bowling balls: core, layout, cover material and surface. You are already past that. Use your eyes, and, oh no, I'm going to say it again, STOP OVER-THINKING EVERYTHING! We'll talk Friday.

[bobforsaken]

A couple of thoughts to spitball out there.
1) RG and Differential are for Undrilled. Layout can change those numbers. Believe your own eyes over the numbers.
2) You mentioned the Dark Encounter has very little angle. I also noticed it is an Asymmetric ball. I don' t know if this is the case for all Asymmetric or can change with layout but I find that my Asymmetric is very sensitive to Axis of Rotation. If I increase my AOR with My Thug Unruly I can hook the lane.. if I stay behind it it hooks less than my tropical breeze. If you are a low axis of Rotation bowler that may be why you are seeing it "hooking less" than your symmetric balls that the numbers would indicate hook less. I've also noticed that if I get it out to the dry to early it will just die. I need to give it oil for it to live to its potential..
3) Its harder to see, but try to not watch the balls as much as they migrate right to left, but rather where they start to change their motion front to back. IE.. Does your Revolver seem more angular simply because it hooks later than your Dark Encounter. My guess is that it hooks Later than the Dark Encounter but Earlier than the Asylum which is why you have to find more friction with the asylum by throwing it to the dry in order to get the Asylum into a roll. When playing the same line as the Revolver it probably has too much oil for the speed/rev rate you are imparting to it and is hitting in the hook phase. Based on your descriptions I'd guess that when playing the same line as the Lethal Revolver your Dark Encounter is Rolling out and your Asylum is never getting into a roll because its skidding too far.

We are different bowlers so listen to your coach.. but for Me I would start with the Asylum as far right as I can (probably right of second arrow for a target) and play it as long as I can.. When it starts skidding past the break point as I migrate in, I would go to the Lethal Revolver. My Dark Encounter would be used when I need to move the breakpoint closer to the headpin (move my target left but feet the same) because the outsides are toasted and give it the oil it needs. Since the breakpoint is closer to the head pin I won't need the large hook to hit pocket, I just want to make sure it gets in to a roll but not too soon.

[billf]

I've recently changed my progression but have been using the same philosophy. Numbers and science are great starting points but we are missing parts of the equation, such as lane surface, oil brand, brand and maintenance of the lane oiler, etc..

I start with my earliest reading ball. This is my new Cyclone drilled RICO. When I get too far left to carry the ten (laydown at 30, 18 at arrows seems to be the limit) then I go to my pin down Shock.
If we are on a lane where more back end is needed I go Panic (pin above and centered on the fingers), Octane (pin through ring) then Covert Revolt (75 x 4 x 30)
All these balls have OOB surface. Wood lanes. Kegel Prodigy conditioner with a Kegel Kustodian oiler. The first 4 lanes of 12 are 40 years older. Those along with lane 8 tend to have more back end.

[Aslan]

2) You mentioned the Dark Encounter has very little angle. I also noticed it is an Asymmetric ball. I don' t know if this is the case for all Asymmetric or can change with layout but I find that my Asymmetric is very sensitive to Axis of Rotation.

That may be the case. I'm starting to get much better axis tilt than I used to but still don't have a 90 degree release with lots of axis rotation. If it's too sensitive to axis rotation, that might be the issue. Because I've noticed the same thing that even out on the dry it just doesn't seem to have any angle...just a lame banana shape curve.

[Amyers]

Rob will probably be able to tell you after he watches you bowl my guestimate is the Dark Encounter is consistently burning up due to lower rev rate and where you like to play on the lanes. I really thought the Asylum would be a hit for you. The one problem I had with that ball is it doesn't carry well once I move inside and start throwing it right to left shouldn't be an issue for you. I would try starting with the asylum use it until you need to move in a little then switch to the lethal revolver.

Part of the problem with asymmetrical balls is that how they perform is very dependent on the pin to pap measurement. It could be with the changes to your game you pap has changed quite a bit and the ball drilling is no longer working for you. I figure a lot of it has to do with throwing aggressive cover ball with lower grit surface 2k down dry lane boards with low revs= ball death

[Aslan]

Yeah. I don't know about starting with the Asylum out in the dry up and in. My concern is that I'm essentially down to 2 balls that work (Le. Revolver and Asylum) and I know that sometime before the 4th game, I am going to eventually not be able to use the more aggressive Le. Revolver...so I need another option at that point or on shorter patterns or drier conditions. If I start with the Asylum and the lanes transition too much...especially until I get the 4th ball from the pro shop...I'm not going to have a ball to ball down to.

The other issue is carry. I can maximize the angle with the Asylum and get it to work well at getting to the pocket...BUT...it won't carry as well as the Le. Revolver does.

The real question I'm facing is whether or not I just switch the Asylum and D. Encounter since there really is just so little movement with the D. Encounter. And I brought the surface to 1500...but it was just by hand to scuff it up a little...and it was acting the same with the OOB finish so it wasn't like I ruined it or anything.

I think your Asylum and mine might be drilled much differently. The reason I say that is, I too had higher hopes for the Asylum and have been disappointed with it's performance...BUT...when I got that ball it had 3" pin and the ball driller was instructed by the coach to add a small/deep balance hole because I "can't control that pin length". I don't know what that means...but it leads me to think they intentionally "dumbed down" the Asylum to get it to better fit in that #3 slot and try to give me a little difference ball to ball.

I'll try to remember to ask Rob about the balls when I see him Friday morning. I read his article on RGs and I know it's a controversial topic (even on BTM), but I don't understand how a ball with a solid cover and a 2.50 RG doesn't "move" much. It probably is less aggressive than my old Slingshot. It'll move earlier, for sure, but the same or less total board coverage. And it's hard to have this kind of discussion because there are SO many variables affecting the answer.

For example;
Ball with low RG and solid cover SHOULD react aggressively...but they can also die out/burn out early and APPEAR to act non-aggressively.

And then there's drilling. Minor factor? Maybe. But when we're talking detailed specs...an asymmetric core...more revs...maybe drilling can lead the ball to appear dead when it fact it is fine and just needs to be thrown differently or drilled differently. As Bill said, it may be that I need more axis rotation to utilize the core.

[Aslan]

I'm impressed that you are factoring in the age of the ball and the technology issue.

Finally, the Perfect Scale is a crutch for those bowlers who are afraid to learn about the components of bowling balls: core, layout, cover material and surface. You are already past that.

Just to provide an alternate opinion on this (PerfectScale)...I totally agree with you that people are better off learning more about specs and not using a generic scale...but I think you're looking past the value of it in terms of the first quote.

There is no specific measurement available to most bowlers that can compare technology to technology. And if we assume that all solid covers are the same...all hybrid covers are the same....and all pearl covers are the same...and we discount technological advances year to year...I think we could make big mistakes in arsenal construction.

And thats why I use PerfectScale as a sixth performance measure (1 of 6)...because it will remind me that despite my 2015 ball being a hybrid and my 2011 ball being a solid....they are much closer in performance than their covers would indicate...because the newer cover is stronger than a hybrid cover from 2011.

It's also probably not as important to you...but thats because you're unique (compared to most bowlers) in two MAJOR ways that will skew your research:

1) You tend to bowl with only one brand (Brunswick).
2) You tend to use only new releases (or newer releases).

I know you also test other manufacturer's balls and stuff...but I'm saying in GENERAL...you don't have to worry as much about variance from company to company or from years past until now.

[Amyers]

Yeah. I don't know about starting with the Asylum out in the dry up and in. My concern is that I'm essentially down to 2 balls that work (Le. Revolver and Asylum) and I know that sometime before the 4th game, I am going to eventually not be able to use the more aggressive Le. Revolver...so I need another option at that point or on shorter patterns or drier conditions. If I start with the Asylum and the lanes transition too much...especially until I get the 4th ball from the pro shop...I'm not going to have a ball to ball down to.

The other issue is carry. I can maximize the angle with the Asylum and get it to work well at getting to the pocket...BUT...it won't carry as well as the Le. Revolver does.

The real question I'm facing is whether or not I just switch the Asylum and D. Encounter since there really is just so little movement with the D. Encounter. And I brought the surface to 1500...but it was just by hand to scuff it up a little...and it was acting the same with the OOB finish so it wasn't like I ruined it or anything.

I think your Asylum and mine might be drilled much differently. The reason I say that is, I too had higher hopes for the Asylum and have been disappointed with it's performance...BUT...when I got that ball it had 3" pin and the ball driller was instructed by the coach to add a small/deep balance hole because I "can't control that pin length". I don't know what that means...but it leads me to think they intentionally "dumbed down" the Asylum to get it to better fit in that #3 slot and try to give me a little difference ball to ball.

I'll try to remember to ask Rob about the balls when I see him Friday morning. I read his article on RGs and I know it's a controversial topic (even on BTM), but I don't understand how a ball with a solid cover and a 2.50 RG doesn't "move" much. It probably is less aggressive than my old Slingshot. It'll move earlier, for sure, but the same or less total board coverage. And it's hard to have this kind of discussion because there are SO many variables affecting the answer.

For example;
Ball with low RG and solid cover SHOULD react aggressively...but they can also die out/burn out early and APPEAR to act non-aggressively.

And then there's drilling. Minor factor? Maybe. But when we're talking detailed specs...an asymmetric core...more revs...maybe drilling can lead the ball to appear dead when it fact it is fine and just needs to be thrown differently or drilled differently. As Bill said, it may be that I need more axis rotation to utilize the core.

I know you've added surface to the encounter have you tried it at a higher grit? Try hitting to with 4k and see if that make any difference if it doesn't trash the thing and move on.

[bobforsaken]

I second the suggestion to try the Encounter with a higher grit to see if its better. I doubt it will hook more for you but it may carry better.

One thing that probably doesn't need to be said, but I'll say it just in case. In terms of "bowling ball progression", can I assume that you are thinking strictly in terms of how balls relate to each other and not necessarily which ball you always use first.. which one is always second.. etc? In other words, the Lethal Revolver may be the first ball out of your bag to get a read on the lane.. you may start with the Asylum and then go back to the revolver one week.. The next you may start with the Revolver and go to the Asylum. The reason I ask is I used to think that the lanes are always drying up so I'm always playing where I was as being drier than when I started. The truth is many times the line I'm playing requires me to ball up and then ball back down as Oil gets pushed into my line and then starts to dissipate again. I would get killed during transition because I was afraid to go more aggressive or move right because "It can't possibly be more oil there now.. it has to be drying out.. if I ball up I'll go through the nose"