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Thread: How much coaching is needed

  1. #21

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    It would be interesting to see how many of those Gold Level Coaches meet your PBA/Tournament winning status. I'm guessing not many, just as many very well-known PBA "stars" know virtually nothing about bowling balls; which is why the ball reps see so much action at PBA events. As I've said many times in the past, Butch Harmon, Hank Haney, and Sean Foley have TWO things in common: they've all coached Tiger Woods, AND none of them has ever had his name on a PGA Leaderboard.

  2. #22

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    There are "paper coaches" who shouldn't be coaching. The color level, or status on tour doesn't always equal a good coach.

    I've had guys with an "eye" for the game help me and others through the years. Also, I've seen top coaches in the industry who are very good at their craft. But, only one "high level, HOF coach" made me waste my time and money seeing this coach. And it was a one on one session - I never go to group lessons. I've had better lessons in the past by "joe bowler."

    But coaches like Bakes and MJ at lane 81, you should try seeing them at least once in your bowling life.

  3. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aslan View Post
    That is what I was getting at. I like the USBC's system of levels and differentiating. I think without the levels...it's hard for the average student to differentiate and it's hard for better coaches to charge more. BUT...by making bronze worthless and Gold impossible or too much effort/expense to get for what you get out of it...it makes the levels less meaningful and less informative.

    Based on my experiences, I'd recommend a system that takes into account the many elements of modern bowling and makes the levels more meaningful. For example:

    BRONZE: Any bowler that;
    - Takes the USBC Bronze level class
    - Holds a PBA card and has cashed in at least one event in the past 3 years OR;
    - Holds a degree (associates or higher) in education.

    SILVER: Any bowler that;
    - Attains Bronze level certification at any time during their lifetime.
    - Holds a PBA card and has cashed in at least three events in the past 9 years
    - Passes the Silver level certification class*.

    * Those with a degree in education would take a 2-day class. Those without a degree in education would take a 3-4 day class.

    GOLD Level certification: Any bowler that;
    - holds a SILVER certification AND;
    - has won at least one Major title (PBA, PWBA, PBA50, USBC Open/Masters, WBTA champion).
    - passes the Gold certification class.

    And an important element of silver and gold classes would be ball specifications, ball drilling, ball technology, etc... as well as a thorough understanding of patterns, lane conditions, and a general understanding of how the various bowling equipment (ball returns, oil machines, scoring systems, pinsetters, etc...) works.

    I think a system like that addresses a lot of the problems with our current system; specifically it combines the 3 necessary elements of a good bowling coach (in no particular order):

    - Success and demonstrated bowling ability
    - An understanding of education and HOW to teach various age groups
    - An understanding of how technology plays a crucial part in the modern game

    I think too many coaches nowadays lack those last two elements. There are a LOT of bronze coaches that bowl well...but they don't know how to "teach" and they can't really explain differences in balls like coverstocks, core dynamics, drilling layouts, etc... And that's FINE. But there should be levels above Bronze where you pay a little more and get a coach that you KNOW (by nature of their certification) that they have an education background and you know that they've reached a very high level in the sport in terms of performance AND have at least a solid understanding of modern equipment.

    Thoughts?
    I honestly don't know what the current qualifications are but i will say that being a top player at any sport does not make a top coach, some people just have the ability to teach and motivate where others do not. It would be nice to find top performers that are also students of the game and possess the skills to transfer that knowledge to others, but I'm afraid making that a requirement would result in few people that would qualify. I think it works that way with many skills, being able to examine what someone else is doing and show them the correct strategy to correct it doesn't really require that you are able to do that exact same thing at that skill level.
    I know a fair amount of good bowlers, lets say guys that regularly throw 300 games and maintain a high average, and I have the good fortune of knowing one Gold level coach, I can honestly tell you that nearly every single one of those guys have sought the advice of this coach and he has been able to give them instruction that have helped their game. Even a guy with more than 100 300 games told me that he was glad to have a resource like the coach to help him out.

    Just think of how many mediocre players have been winning coaches in professional sports and how many mega talented players can't coach worth a damn.
    Last edited by Tony; 10-16-2015 at 06:32 PM.

  4. #24
    Bowling God Aslan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobLV1 View Post
    It would be interesting to see how many of those Gold Level Coaches meet your PBA/Tournament winning status. I'm guessing not many, just as many very well-known PBA "stars" know virtually nothing about bowling balls; which is why the ball reps see so much action at PBA events. As I've said many times in the past, Butch Harmon, Hank Haney, and Sean Foley have TWO things in common: they've all coached Tiger Woods, AND none of them has ever had his name on a PGA Leaderboard.
    You guys are focusing too much on the "titles" side. I thought the beauty of it was that you could become a silver level coach by being an average bowler who knew how to educate kids/people OR you could get to silver with a great deal of talent and less teaching/coaching/education experience. It's only the GOLD level where suddenly you need some more of both. But I compared it to the CURRENT system...and there's what, 20-30 gold coaches? So I figured if they're scarce now...this system wouldn't make them "more" scarce. Would it??

    And thats why I left the title qualification only "cashing" and only at the very lowest/regional level. How many PBA cardholder this year have cashed in at least 1 event? How many have cashed in 3? Remember...it's not "win" or make match play or make the stepladder finals. It's simply "cashing". I also think it would increase interest in regional tournaments because if you have a bowler that is really good, maybe buys a pro shop, maybe thinks about coaching...now he has to be "good enough" to cash in an event. He could finish 94th and win $20 and BAMM...that meets the requirement. He could finish 74th 3 times and that meets Silver.

    However...there would need to be some type of age clause put in. Something like you can waive the cashing requirement if you're older than 55 and can show that you've been active in at least 2 sanctioned leagues for the past 10 years. Because otherwise, you might have a bowler that takes up coaching as a senior and could be limited physically by injury or illness.

    And why am I creating criteria and clauses for something that is never going to be anything?? I think I'm anxious about the tournament tomorrow. And a girl is setting up a date with me for next weekend so I need to do some emergency dieting/push ups/sit ups to get myself in dating condition by then...not to mention eating absolutely nothing. Just rice cakes and granola bars. They better not have an awesome snack bar at the bowling alley where the tournament is. That'll be torture.

  5. #25

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    There are a handful of gold coaches men and women with national titles. But probably the best and some of the most influential coaches don't. These include: Rod Ross, Fred Borden, Gordon Vadakin, and Lou Marquez. These coaching greats never even entered the program: Dick Ritger, John Jowdy, Tom Kouros, Bill Taylor. These 4 are some of the most renowned coaches EVER.

  6. #26
    SandBagger AlexNC's Avatar
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    I am a music educator and have been fascinated by the parallels between music instruction vs learning in a sport like bowling. So many of the same concepts apply when it comes to advancing in either. I can also say that some of the most talanted musicians I have encountered have been **** poor teachers. Sometimes they lack the communication skills to get their thoughts across or they just don't have patience. I have also encountered people who aren't the strongest performers, but they are excellent teachers. That's not to say I have met bad musicians who made great teachers, just separating the performance aspect.

  7. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aslan View Post
    You guys are focusing too much on the "titles" side. I thought the beauty of it was that you could become a silver level coach by being an average bowler who knew how to educate kids/people OR you could get to silver with a great deal of talent and less teaching/coaching/education experience. It's only the GOLD level where suddenly you need some more of both. But I compared it to the CURRENT system...and there's what, 20-30 gold coaches? So I figured if they're scarce now...this system wouldn't make them "more" scarce. Would it??

    However...there would need to be some type of age clause put in. Something like you can waive the cashing requirement if you're older than 55 and can show that you've been active in at least 2 sanctioned leagues for the past 10 years. Because otherwise, you might have a bowler that takes up coaching as a senior and could be limited physically by injury or illness.
    (
    The ability to win titles as a player has no direct bearing on ability as a coach, it's a fact some of the best coaches in sports were not top level professional players and some coached until they were quite old, why can't you coach if you're older or limited physically. Bowling is largely a mental game anyway.

    Look at Bear Bryant, never played beyond college ball, became one of the top coaches in college football, coached his last game a month before he died at 70. He died over 30 years ago and was at one time the all time NCAA Division I wins leader, I think he is still in the top 5 to this day. He had the ability to instruct, motivate and create winning players and teams and those skills had little to do with his ability to play the game as an individual.

    If I remember correctly wasn't there 50 or 60 Gold coaches a few years ago and the number dropped because of the new renewal procedure that required coaches to pay a sizable fee to get renewed or something like that ?

  8. #28
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    First, I do fix all the machines at our center BUT what the hell does that have to do with coaching? Does knowing how to repair the ball return make anybody a better coach? NO!!!
    Would me teaching that to a bowler help their game? NO!!! So why have that as any part or any level?

    Look at all the HOF coaches from any sport. The majority didn't play past college or if pro were only average. Why? Because they lacked the natural talent needed to be the top 1% (pro athlete) yet became average for that 1% by being students of the respective sports, learning every advantage and angle they could because they needed those just to be a mediocre player. There are exceptions but they are exactly that, exceptions and not the rule.
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  9. #29
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    I don't think I agree with much of this at all.

    1. I don't think you need to bowl at the PBA level to be an effective coach. I've worked with former PBA players before does not necessarily make them a good coach. The ability to do something does not translate in to the ability to transfer that knowledge to others. I will say that former PBA bowlers do tend to have a better understanding of oil patterns than a lot of other bowlers.

    2. A degree in Education? Really? at Bronze level? This maybe should be a recommendation for Gold level coaches. The ability to understand how to teach adults is important. It's something that some people are never able to develop it's also something that if you can't learn from a week long seminar you probably aren't going to figure it out in the 103 weeks (associates degree) either.

    3. I have no idea why you need to understand how a pin setter or ball return works to be a coach at any level.

    4. Understanding oil patterns and equipment in general is of importance, having a general understanding of the effects of layout on ball motion would be useful, But I'm not sure that the coach need to replace the ball driller either. If he can great but it wouldn't be a requirement in my opinion.
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  10. #30
    Bowling God Aslan's Avatar
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    I think my proposal(s) are confusing everyone.

    I was just saying that if you want to make the Bronze, Silver, Gold certifications more important and relevant....there needs to be changes and I proposed some changes. Everyone seems to hate the idea of requiring anything (education, skill, money, knowledge) to gain a coaching certification...which is FINE...but then you still have the problem that the certification system is meaningless and there's no way to know a "good coach" from a "bad coach" other than random opinion. It also is a system that doesn't encourage coaches to move up the chain because as long as you got the meaningless bronze certification you can simply say, "Oh well...silver and gold aren't worth much and are too expensive anyways."

    As a quick defense of what I was proposing:
    1) I've been coached by more people at more levels than what, 98% of this site? So...I've probably paid for and experienced MORE coaching in the last 2 years from a greater pool of coaches than anyone else on the site. I even attended the youth coaching seminar put on by the USBC.
    2) Coaching is like teaching. You can have all the skill in the world...but if you can't teach...if you don't have the right "bedside manner"...you'll be ineffective. SO...shouldn't there be some type of requirement that coaches learn to "teach"?
    3) You can be the best teacher in the entire country...but if you don't know how to bowl and aren't good at it...then your skill level comes into question and your students are going to be less likely to listen to you. Success MEANS something. There are things you learn over decades of perfecting a craft and through the trials and tribulations of actually competing at a high level that MEAN something.

    And remember (I read this somewhere last year), the biggest reason a bowler stops listening to a coach is based on their individual success. In other words, if you "coach" someone and it WORKS...and they get BETTER....and they score HIGHER...they WILL listen to you. But no matter your credentials, no matter how "right" you are...if what you teach doesn't translate into success in a VERY SHORT timeframe...they will stop listening to you.

    So...I'm not trying to offend any coaches by saying they need to win titles or get a degree in teaching...I was just throwing out some ideas on how to make the levels relevant. So far I haven't heard any other realistic suggestions on how to do that. There's a lot of complaining about the current system requiring too much and being too expensive...but isn't changing that going to just further water down the meaning of the certifications?

    And, like my discussion with Rob about bowling ball arsenals in another thread...the question can actually be simplified to: (Mudpuppy Cliff Notes Question): "How do YOU suggest a bowler looking for coaching differentiates between a pro shop owner/experienced bowler that can't coach and has very little skill versus an elite bowling coach that is in the top 10-20% of his/her piers?
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