Right Ball, Wrong Ball; Big ball, small ball...where's Dr. Seuss when you need him??

[Aslan]

Okay, I posted this in my scores thread (Aslan's Scores (of the non-lady kind)) but then we got talking more about scores "of the lady kind" so I thought I'd post it here.

This is a question related to ball selection, progression, etc... We talked about it a lot in a recent thread and this is a slight continuation of that discussion. WARNING!: Unless you're Chris Barnes or a ball rep or someone that likes to talk bowling ball specs....this thread "may" be boring to you.

I went practicing last night...and I seemed to have more success with the #4 and #5 balls in my arsenal...both Pearls. And it made me wonder what is posted below (in italics):

Not sure about the ball situation. On fresh conditions, starting with my strongest solids up the 6-7 boards seems to work well on Wednesday nights but not as well on Monday nights. I had some luck playing more inside with the pearls (Melee Jab) in Vegas when I was working with Rob and I seemed to have some luck with the pearls (Melee and Loaded Revolver) tonight (at the Monday house). I'm wondering if maybe I'm just using the wrong balls on Mondays.

It just doesn't make any sense. Why would the solids work so well up the outside on a very easy THS...but on a pattern that seems to be a tighter shot...with a bit of OOB at 1-3...the pearls seem better. Logic dictates that either the Monday center has a narrower pattern and the solids are burning up when thrown up the 8-board...or the pearls are doing well simply because the lanes are so broken down for practice that the pearls are the only things that are playable. Unfortunately...I can't practice on league conditions unless I play in the colored-pin tournaments on Saturdays.

So, that's the dilemma. The first ball in my "progression" (that Rob hates)...seems to work fine on Wednesdays. I rarely have to even switch balls. I've been told (during a couple lessons) that I have good luck with solids because I have a higher speed so weaker covers are going to have trouble making the turn. And I do well specifically with the Lethal Revolver because it's drilled pin down (my only ball drilled pin down) which does slightly delay the roll phase...and is giving me better carry.

But on Mondays...the solids don't seem to be working as well. On Wednesdays I'm standing center and throwing out towards the 6-7 boards...and even at that angle..the ball seems to come back and carry just fine. But on Mondays, standing 4 boards right of center and throwing up the 8-board...I'm not always getting back to the pocket and tend to carry light. Yet if I get too far outside of that (4-7 boards)...the ball reacts too much and goes through the nose or Brooklyn (if I get too much hand into it).

Should I abandon the progression system/approach as Rob has suggested? What other system should I use? The debate in the other thread was about how maybe the progression system isn't the way to go....yet nobody has a better "system". And "systems" are important in bowling. Whether it's a pre-shot routine or just being able to make consistent shots and consistent adjustments...I think you need some type of system in bowling or you lose repeatability and add variables to your shots. Maybe I should start more inside with the Asylum? Maybe, since the pearls are playing well there...I should move more outside and see if the pearls can stay right of the headpin? Moving too far inside with the pearls is going to problematic...I just have too much speed and not enough rpms to get the pearls to come back into the pocket.

Or should I try a different approach? Maybe start with the weakest ball in the progression and work my way right until I find a more optimum line/ball combination?

I'm not sure I buy the idea that there is such a thing as a ball that won't work in a particular house. I still believe you can make any ball work. And I still think ball companies have brainwashed most of us into thinking they are constantly inventing newer and greater stuff when in actuality they are just making marginal tweaks, making them different colors, and re-releasing them. But if I'm wrong...then I'm really not making very good use of my arsenal by trying to fit a square peg in a round hole concerning my solids on Mondays.

Thoughts?

[bobforsaken]

A lot of questions in my mind have to do with how the solids fail to work on Monday. Hitting pocket but not carrying? Not hooking?

However, in terms of a progression... If it helps you understand how your balls relate to each other, that is one thing. But you'll never have a "progression" in terms of first ball out of the bag.. then second.. then third.. etc. There are too many factors between the different surfaces.. different oil patterns.. different lane conditioners.. Different lane machines... and lets not forget.. WHAT OTHER BOWLERS ARE DOING TO THE LANES..

The best bet is to get a ball you feel comfortable using that gives you the best read on what the lanes are doing.. Then choose which ball you want to start with. Hopefully you have an idea when your shot starts to go away what balls may give you a bit more push through the front or may read earlier depending on what you need.

I have a progression of sorts.. I know where to go if Ball X needs to pick up a bit earlier.. or Ball Y is picking up too early.... But what ball I'm starting with and what ball I use second depends solely one what is happening to my reaction as I bowl.

[Amyers]

See this is exactly what Rob has been talking to you about. Why would you continue to start with the solids if you feel the pearls are performing better? Throw the ball that works best and carries. When it quits either ball down and make a small move left or make a larger move and ball up. You'll have to work with it to determine which balls work best when your ball is doing x. That's a system continuing to do the same thing even though your eyes tell you it isn't working is insanity.

[RobLV1]

There are so many factors involved that influence your ball reaction, and this is precisely why any preconceived idea, including that of a progression is a dangerous thing. While you might be considering the difference in the pattern on different nights, are you taking into account the maintenance schedule on the oil machine? How about the weather, particularly the humidity.

You also need to understand the different ways that solids, hybrids, and pearl react to different parts of the lane. Solids find more friction in the oil, and react less violently to dry parts of the lane. Pearls skid more in the oil, and react more violently (angular) to the dry. Hybrids are somewhere in the middle. When you add to this the effects of surface (more surface, like solids find more friction in the oil, while less surface, particularly polished surfaces, result in more skid in the oil and a more angular reaction in the dry), I think you will begin to understand what I was talking about in the "Spaces" article I wrote in BTM. This is exactly why I remind people that you cannot overlook the low RG when setting up your arsenal, and why the idea of a "progression" is flawed.

Let me give you an example. My "normal" arsenal, from most aggressive to least aggressive usually includes an aggressive, low rg asymmetrical (Einstein/Scholar/Intellect), a low rg symmetrical (Jab/Cross), a medium rg symmetrical (Brawler/Blue Ringer/Platinum Ringer), and a high rg symmetrical (LT 48/Soul Mate). This is not a progression of balls, but simply a range of balls. For the past few outings, I've bowled pretty well starting with the LT 48 (polished). This week I had the best reaction with the Jab. Was it the weather, or the particular pair of lanes, or the people on the opposing team that caused the difference? I don't know, what's more, I don't care. The point is that I discovered very quickly that what had worked for the past couple of weeks was not working this week, and changed accordingly.

Get rid of your plan, and let the lanes dictate what you do in terms of line, and what ball you use! Use your eyes more and your brain less.

[billf]

First let me just say real quick-Rob is right. That hurts less and less each time I say it.

Are the lane surfaces the same? Even different type of synthetics have differing friction with real wood having the highest friction. I have fought for years to make balls work in the logical order that they should. My average has suffered because of it. My home center is old wood. Now I'm using a real long pin Motiv Tag drilled 90X6X40. I wanted a ball that would go so long I would think it got lost on the way. I ended up with a ball that goes 50' and starts to turn. I also tried an Ebonite Cyclone drilled RICO. Entry level and one of the weakest reactive resin balls on the market. It was on sale and I wanted to try that layout. What I expected was a super smooth ball to use the third game of scratch league. What I ended up with was a ball I can't use at that house. With my rev rate and speed being close to matched I just can't keep it right of the head pin. Too much built in friction in the lanes. It went in the tournament bag. I'm sure it will save my butt on a long or heavy pattern but not for me on a THS.

I use to track ambient temperature, barometric pressure, lane temperature before practice and which ball did what for each lane along with my starting points and progressions. I ended up frustrated and not having any fun and my average still sucked. I won a RG Shout in a raffle. Costing me zero I decided to throw the weak little ball. Shot my high sacntioned game of 298 and my first 700 in four years. Eight days later I shot 268 and 284 with it (and another 700). That's when the light went off finally. I kept going for the hook in a box and what my mind believed a ball should do rather than what my weak eyes were telling me they were doing. At the time of the raffle my average was 170 in six leagues half way through the season. I shot 210 the second half to finish them at 186 in all six. Only three leagues this season (so far) and off to another slow start averaging 194. For the first time in my ten years of bowling I have a legitimate chance to average over 200 (association average this season so far is 174). Once I used my eyes more and brain less the scores came and so did the fun again.

League I use the Tag, Covert Revolt that is pretty much dead and my plastic spare ball. I also have a Shock, Octane and Crazy Antics at the center but haven't used them lately. Lights Out, Wipe Out, Scream, Punch Out, Nexxxus and Natural Pearl in my closet for tournaments. I tried to force all those at my lanes and they didn't work as they should there. I use to care but not anymore. Results are more important than the logic.

[billf]

Oh and pin down should get into a roll earlier not later. Being that it seems to you to be delayed I now wonder if your solids are actually still in the hook phase when hitting the pocket (casues real weak hits) yet appears to you to have hit the roll phase.

[bowl1820]

I'm not sure I buy the idea that there is such a thing as a ball that won't work in a particular house. I still believe you can make any ball work.

You shouldn't have to "make a ball work", you should let the ball do the work (it was designed for). It's not that a ball won't work in a particular house, it's just that other balls might work better.

I'm really not making very good use of my arsenal by trying to fit a square peg in a round hole concerning my solids on Mondays.

This hit the nail on head.

Learn how each of your balls react and how they compare to each other. That way when you see one is not reacting the way you want, you can make a the proper adjustment and not just try to force something to work.

Lanes are like people each speaking a different language, You have listen to them to know which language (Ball) match's up the best to what language the lane is speaking.

[RobLV1]

Oh and pin down should get into a roll earlier not later. Being that it seems to you to be delayed I now wonder if your solids are actually still in the hook phase when hitting the pocket (casues real weak hits) yet appears to you to have hit the roll phase.

Hopefully, you still feel more benevelant towards me when I tell you that the idea that pin down balls roll earlier is left over from pre-resin days when static weights actually had some impact. In those days, pin up balls had more finger weight that made them roll later, and pin down balls had more thumb weight that made them roll earlier. Today, when static weights have virtually no impact, pin down balls result in a larger angle to the VAL which, as described by Mo Pinel, "...will raise the RG and lower the total differential of the drilled ball. These changes will result in the ball revving up slower and transitioning slower." This was confirmed for me when I purchased a Radical Grease Monkey that contained a pamphlet that showed the actual rg and differentials with different layouts. The ball which has an undrilled low rg of 2.541 and differential of 0.047, has an actual low rg of 2.551 and differential of 0.040 when drilled pin down.

[Aslan]

I'm not disagreeing with anything anyone is saying, but I still don't see an answer to why the solids would perform worse on the fresh than the pearls.

I know, I know...believe me...I GET that everything from barometric pressure to alien intervention can lead to a ball behaving differently. But as I've stated over and over again....you have 2-7 shots...you don't have time pre-league play to go through every ball on both lanes and try to see which ball is aligning with the stars and moon phases. I understand that a progression or some other preconception is not "ideal"...but if the only other answer is "depending on 274 different factors....maybe one ball works and the others don't...or maybe none of them work...you need to take a temperature reading, measure the oil volume at each arrow, weigh each pin, dim the lights, turn the fan up, slap the waitress on the *** (but not with your bowling hand), then try every ball in your bag...then try every ball in your bag left handed...etc... Because while that strategy has far less "pre-conceptions"....it's also very close to simply flipping a coin. But we've been over this.

To ME....if I'm just guessing based on my limited knowledge of bowling ball specs...

- A solid that is up the 6-7 board and finding the pocket and carrying well...would lead me to believe the pattern is wider. If it wasn't...the solid SHOULD either hook too much OR die prematurely.

- If a Pearl thrown straighter, up the 8-board, is finding the pocket better and hitting with carry better....that would lead me to believe the pattern was narrower...maybe lighter volume. Maybe it's shorter than the other pattern.

The Wednesday center...seems to have very heavy oil in the middle...probably out to 38-40. Misses inside don't necessarily hold...but if you put too much hand into the shot...that will hold. The big thing on Wednesdays is that ample dry area outside. I almost struck on a ball that missed all the way to the 1-board...but it's so dry downlane that the more you miss right...the harder the ball comes back. And for some reason...probably my speed and to a lesser extent the way the ball is drilled...the ball isn't too burnt up by the time it hits the pocket.

The Monday center...the pattern seems flatter....especially in the midlane. It seems like a narrower pattern in the heads...but wider in the midlane. I would think....that the solids would do better in that house because they'd be able to move a little even with some oil to the outside. But the biggest difference from what I can tell visually...is the breakpoint seems much smaller. You can't miss more than 5 boards right of your target and still expect to hit the breakpoint. 1-3 are pretty much OOB. But you can't put too much hand into the shot...because the middle volume isn't heavy enough to hold that shot. It almost seems like the pattern is also a bit shorter...maybe 36-38ft. So even if you're on line...sometimes the ball "jumps" just before the pin deck.

Hopefully that provides a bit better analysis of the different conditions and what I'm seeing.

As to why I stick with the solids on Mondays is two-fold:

1) In order for me to make a change from a progression style to some other approach...I need a "system". I can't just grab this ball and that ball. That's why I'm so interested in how we can take Rob's approach and make it into something that league bowlers or tournament bowlers could actually use. I'd be very open to a new approach...but it needs to be something I can apply to leagues and tournaments...sometimes houses strange to me....and it can't take more than 2-7 shots to figure out (and no measurements or astronomy). The solids SHOULD work better on fresh conditions. If every pattern was the same...logically the solids would be first in your progression. And absent of another logical argument...I'm struggling to move away from what "should work" to something that "might work".

2) The pearls perform well in PRACTICE. As I've ranted on endlessly about...there's very little ability to PRACTICE on fresh conditions. It MAY just be that the lanes are SO broken down during practice...that only the pearls will play. And if I tried them as the first balls out of the bag on fresh conditions....there's a real good chance that I'd be way right of pocket.

But...I'm willing to try. Maybe Monday, I start with the Asylum or D. Encounter or just start with the pearls? I'm willing to experiment...I'd just like to know the logic behind WHY that might work better versus throwing stuff at the wall seeing what will stick.

[RobLV1]

There are a couple of things that you are not taking into account: the lanes themselves, and where you choose to play them. From my own experience, solids work better in some centers, pearls work better in others, and others you can use anything because other factors like rg and surface make more of a difference. You seem to want a plan so badly, so at least develop your plan(s) for each center. The idea that starting with solids, and playing a certain line on Monday has anything at all to do with Wednesday night at a different center is rediculous. If you notice my own arsenal as I listed it below, I have grouped the balls by RG, and have two or three choices within each rg group, set up by cover material. When I go to Southpoint, I tend to favor solids on the high side of the house, and pearls on the low side of the house. At Red Rock, I don't even bother bringing a low rg asymmetrical, bringing two high rg balls, a polished solid, and a pearl instead, along with a low rg pearl and a medium rg hybrid. At the Suncoast, I tend to use low rg solids to attack the shorter pattern playing more inside in the oil.

These plans involve what to bring to a particular center, based on what has worked in the past, and with the full understanding that what has worked in the past is no guarantee that it will work next time. Once you get there, you still have to use your eyes to figure out what will work now.