Benchmark ball? Then what?

[JasonNJ]

I would say your form and release are probably better with is giving you more snap. Another ball you should consider is a C300 Blur, should be very similar to the Freeze and it comes in Pearl, Solid and Hybrid. Also you can find it on Ebay for about $60.

[Ptnomore]

OK. Help me understand your suggestions. I checked out the LT-48 and the Storm Ride. The LT-48 looks interesting and could give me that extra room to play deeper into the set. I totally get that. Although I never really looked into it much, I THOUGHT for whatever reason, that the LT-48 was a dry lane ball. Obviously, I was wrong. That ball looks really interesting.

The Storm Ride with the harder polished shell same as the Tropical line, and seems like it's meant for those late games, game 3 for me, or dryer winter nights when they turn the heat on. I have a Nail Smoke and Fire that fits that bill. Am I looking at it wrong? That just doesn't seem like a good match up to the Freeze that was designed for medium oil.

you guys are saying that the Ride and the LT are in the same line as the freeze and viral, but from what I'm seeing, the Viral seems like it should be a MUCH stronger ball than either of those. What am I missing?

[Amyers]

The

OK. Help me understand your suggestions. I checked out the LT-48 and the Storm Ride. The LT-48 looks interesting and could give me that extra room to play deeper into the set. I totally get that. Although I never really looked into it much, I THOUGHT for whatever reason, that the LT-48 was a dry lane ball. Obviously, I was wrong. That ball looks really interesting.

The Storm Ride with the harder polished shell same as the Tropical line, and seems like it's meant for those late games, game 3 for me, or dryer winter nights when they turn the heat on. I have a Nail Smoke and Fire that fits that bill. Am I looking at it wrong? That just doesn't seem like a good match up to the Freeze that was designed for medium oil.

you guys are saying that the Ride and the LT are in the same line as the freeze and viral, but from what I'm seeing, the Viral seems like it should be a MUCH stronger ball than either of those. What am I missing?

Actually if you look up the Freeze its listed as a medium to dry lane ball which is similar to what the Lt-48 and Ride are listed as. The oil classification manufactures give balls is subjective at best anyway and has as much to do with surface as anything else. The best clue is where it ranks in thier line up which with the freeze is toward the lower end of the scale lower mid line is what they call it but in reality the only ball below it is the scout which has a pancake core and doesn't really count. That doesn't make it a bad ball at all just means that it's more of a weaker cover stock which has it's advantages. The lt-48 and Ride fills similar spots in those manufacturers lineups. On this type of ball oil handling really not important as your throwing them to the dry spot and watching them come back anyway if there's not a dry spot your going to be using a different ball.

Really just depends on what your looking for. If I wanted a freeze replacement either of the balls listed above should work. If your looking for something to start the set with I would lean more towards the Redline. On THS patterns there is almost always dry outside so you can get away with using less agressive equipment as long as your comfortable getting the ball outside but the redline will give you more options to move into the oil a little more.

I haven't seen a Viral in person but I've looked at that ball quite a bit myself ant talked to my PSO about it and according to him it's less agressive than my Arson Low Flare.

[RobLV1]

OK. Help me understand your suggestions. I checked out the LT-48 and the Storm Ride. The LT-48 looks interesting and could give me that extra room to play deeper into the set. I totally get that. Although I never really looked into it much, I THOUGHT for whatever reason, that the LT-48 was a dry lane ball. Obviously, I was wrong. That ball looks really interesting.

The Storm Ride with the harder polished shell same as the Tropical line, and seems like it's meant for those late games, game 3 for me, or dryer winter nights when they turn the heat on. I have a Nail Smoke and Fire that fits that bill. Am I looking at it wrong? That just doesn't seem like a good match up to the Freeze that was designed for medium oil.

you guys are saying that the Ride and the LT are in the same line as the freeze and viral, but from what I'm seeing, the Viral seems like it should be a MUCH stronger ball than either of those. What am I missing?

I think that you would be well served by getting rid of the whole "weak ball," "strong ball" concept. Balls either hook early (cover more boards) or hook late (retain more energy for the pins). Here is a link to the bowling ball section of my web site: http://modern-bowling.com/Bowling-Co...-Vegas-NV.html. Look for the article entitled "Weak Ball, Strong Ball, Right Ball, Wrong Ball." In a nutshell, it asks the question: if you use a strong ball and it rolls out at 40', does it then become a weak ball? Conversely, if you use a weak ball and it retains the energy to obliterate the pins, does it then become a strong ball? I think that's what you are missing.

[fortheloveofbowling]

I think that you would be well served by getting rid of the whole "weak ball," "strong ball" concept. Balls either hook early (cover more boards) or hook late (retain more energy for the pins). Here is a link to the bowling ball section of my web site: http://modern-bowling.com/Bowling-Co...-Vegas-NV.html. Look for the article entitled "Weak Ball, Strong Ball, Right Ball, Wrong Ball." In a nutshell, it asks the question: if you use a strong ball and it rolls out at 40', does it then become a weak ball? Conversely, if you use a weak ball and it retains the energy to obliterate the pins, does it then become a strong ball? I think that's what you are missing.

What If the back ends are really flying and i use a STRONG ball to burn off energy to lay off on the back? Does that mean it is a weak ball and the right ball? On those same back ends the WEAK ball retains energy and over reacts on the back. Does that ball become a STRONG ball and the wrong ball? I understand what you have been trying to get at since i have been on these boards but that really complicates bowlers communicating with each other. Even if you you use your preferred less aggressive and more aggressive terminology you still run in to the same ball motion description issues.

You have to look at it in more extreme instances than a 10 board wide wall. Say i throw a Storm Tropical breeze and a Storm Lock on a 45 foot pattern and the Tropical doesn't move an inch and i can get a good motion from the Lock. That means the lock is a STRONG ball and the Tropical is neither aggressive, less aggressive, nor strong. It is WEAK. Compare it to a patch of ice and a tire with a chain on it and a bald tire. Having said all of that, i will agree that those universally accepted terms (weak and strong) utilized between bowlers exchanging information should really be clarified between the fronts and the backs in discussions. In situations where more experienced players are together that is pretty clear. Not trying to sabotage your silver level status i just think going away from the traditional terminology just further confuses things for some.

[Ptnomore]

I think that you would be well served by getting rid of the whole "weak ball," "strong ball" concept. Balls either hook early (cover more boards) or hook late (retain more energy for the pins).

Understood. I have read your discussions on that subject before, and it makes sense. Its a bad habit now. started reading that article that you posted above tonight. There's ALOT of info there to take in. It'll take me awhile to get through it and digest it. But I will. Wife and 4 kids at home with a long to-do list tend to hamper my afterwork activities sometimes.

So, that being said, looking at the numbers, I would expect the Viral to read the lane much earlier than the Ride, and the LT-48 to be similar to my Nail Smoke and Fire, which doesnt bounce off the dry so much, and Im assuming because it's designed to get down the lane when the lanes are dry, or the pattern is burnt? But watching the video's of the LT-48, that's obviously not the case. Is that purely a function of the pearl vs solid coverstock making that much of a difference with a very similar core?

[Amyers]

The difference between pearl and solid cover stocks is less than you might think. We tend to think of solids as earlier hooking and pearls as later but that's in large part to the surfaces we normally associate with those type of cover stocks. Today a ball manufacturer can tune a solid to get it farther down the lane or make a pearl more earlier rolling. In general solids will read more in the midlane and pearls will be longer but with similar surface preps those changes are minimal in my opinion. What you are seeing with the differences between the Nail Smoke and Fire and the LT-48 are more to do with the aggressiveness of the cover than they are with the differences between solid and pearl.

I'm sure that their will be some disagreement here but I've talked to some people deeply ingrained in the ball manufacturing business and anymore weather a ball is a solid, hybrid, or pearl is more aesthetics than anything else at this point.

[RobLV1]

Say i throw a Storm Tropical breeze and a Storm Lock on a 45 foot pattern and the Tropical doesn't move an inch and i can get a good motion from the Lock. That means the lock is a STRONG ball and the Tropical is neither aggressive, less aggressive, nor strong. It is WEAK. Compare it to a patch of ice and a tire with a chain on it and a bald tire. Having said all of that, i will agree that those universally accepted terms (weak and strong) utilized between bowlers exchanging information should really be clarified between the fronts and the backs in discussions. In situations where more experienced players are together that is pretty clear. Not trying to sabotage your silver level status i just think going away from the traditional terminology just further confuses things for some.

It's purely a matter of terminology and connotation. Using your own example of the Tropical Breeze and the Lock, is it really necessary to equate the Lock with strength, or is it just a matter of the Lock being the right ball for the 45' pattern? I know what you are saying about experienced players communicating, however most of the participants on this site are not at that level. Too many bowlers who have not reached that level mistakenly believe that buying a "strong" ball will help them to get the hook that they so desperately want. You and I both know that an overly aggressive ball will have the opposite effect for them. That is my reason for trying to change the traditional terminology. Using Aggressive vs. Non-aggressive works for bowlers at all levels, while Strong vs. Weak works for the select few who really understand ball motion.

[Ptnomore]

The difference between pearl and solid cover stocks is less than you might think. We tend to think of solids as earlier hooking and pearls as later but that's in large part to the surfaces we normally associate with those type of cover stocks. Today a ball manufacturer can tune a solid to get it farther down the lane or make a pearl more earlier rolling. In general solids will read more in the midlane and pearls will be longer but with similar surface preps those changes are minimal in my opinion. What you are seeing with the differences between the Nail Smoke and Fire and the LT-48 are more to do with the aggressiveness of the cover than they are with the differences between solid and pearl.

I'm sure that their will be some disagreement here but I've talked to some people deeply ingrained in the ball manufacturing business and anymore weather a ball is a solid, hybrid, or pearl is more aesthetics than anything else at this point.

That certainly muddy's the waters a bit. So now, the numbers mean less than the manufactures statement of each ball motion (smooth, angular) and oil typ (Heavy, Medium or dry). And I was trying to get away from that, since each individual bowlers talent and style affects what the ball motion is, and what oil volume is perceived.

I feel like I'm back in Calculus 3 for the 2nd time, again. I guess that would make it a 3rd time.

[RobLV1]

That certainly muddy's the waters a bit. So now, the numbers mean less than the manufactures statement of each ball motion (smooth, angular) and oil typ (Heavy, Medium or dry). And I was trying to get away from that, since each individual bowlers talent and style affects what the ball motion is, and what oil volume is perceived.

I feel like I'm back in Calculus 3 for the 2nd time, again. I guess that would make it a 3rd time.

I know for a fact that one manufacturer who shall remain nameless described a ball a certain way for no other reason that they felt they had a "hole" in their line of balls that needed to be filled. I believe that Ameyers is right on the money in terms of the differences between solids, pearls, and hybrids. If you take a look at the solids on the market, most are sold with dull finishes. Most pearls are sold with polished covers, and hybrids tend to come with OOB finishes that are dull, but with high grit finishes. One cannot help but wonder how much of the perceived differences between the cover types are really just the result of the finishes that are applied to them.

As I said earlier, look at the core numbers as they apply to your game and your lane conditions, use one or two layouts that work for you, and don't be afraid to change the surface as many times as it takes to get the reaction that you want.