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Thread: I would 💝 to win 🎳haywire

  1. #11

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    Keep in mind once a ball is drilled it becomes asymetrical

  2. #12
    Bowling God Aslan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cajun View Post
    Perhaps the Haywire works better for him than the Genius does...
    Chuck was saying it was a good replacement for a Mastermind Genius yet the two balls from a specification and manufacturer expectations would be completely different. You're correct...if the person was saying, "The Mastermind Genius doesn't work, I don't know why, of every ball in the universe...what is an example of one available for purchase that might react positively?" Then, yes....the Haywire is a ball that is virtually nothing like the Mastermind Genius...so merely by eliminating the Genius...you are now potentially one ball closer to a better reaction/game.

    I was just stating what I stated because I found that evaluation by Chuck to be perplexing and was hoping he'd explain his point of view. I know he's very experienced with ball technology, drilling, bowling, etc... so I'm assuming he must have a reason.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aslan View Post
    I can think of Zero ways a Rotogrip, sanded solid cover, symmetric core, HP3, low RG ball would be a good replacement for a high RG, Brunswick, assymetric, polished hybrid cover, Pro-level Mastermind Genius.
    Again. Facts are facts. Conjecture is conjecture. The above are facts and are indisputable.

    Quote Originally Posted by Amyers View Post
    The RG on the genius and the haywire are similar and the mastermind line is only slightly asymmetric. If you polished the haywire they probably are somewhat close.
    If I spray scented deodorizer on a pile of poo...I can make it smell like a flower....that doesn't make it a flower.

    Yes...you can get every ball ever made and that ever will be made...by the process of a small amount to a large amount of drilling and surfacing...to react in a similar fashion. Bowling ball companies would prefer that not be broadcasted....since their livelihood depends on convincing you there is something worth $200 that you should pay for. Very few companies advertise with the Amyers statement of "Buy Brunswick!! It can be polished to behave as weakly as a Rotogrip Haywire." Or "Buy Rotogrip!! It can be drilled in a way to almost hook as early as a Brunswick!"

    My point, with sarcasm added for humor and entertainment, is that the ORIGINAL question was about what would be a good replacement for a Mastermind Genius and the response was, "A Haywire would be a good replacement....etc..." As I stated above, I was simply wondering what Chuck meant....since the FACTS are that the balls are nothing like each other. YES...if the question was, "I have a MM Genius....but I hate it because it goes longer than I want and moves way more on the backend than I want....what would be an improvement for me?"....then okay.....now we have an entire of universe of interesting opinions and educated guesses. But that wasn't the question.

  3. #13
    Bowling Guru Amyers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aslan View Post
    Chuck was saying it was a good replacement for a Mastermind Genius yet the two balls from a specification and manufacturer expectations would be completely different. You're correct...if the person was saying, "The Mastermind Genius doesn't work, I don't know why, of every ball in the universe...what is an example of one available for purchase that might react positively?" Then, yes....the Haywire is a ball that is virtually nothing like the Mastermind Genius...so merely by eliminating the Genius...you are now potentially one ball closer to a better reaction/game.

    I was just stating what I stated because I found that evaluation by Chuck to be perplexing and was hoping he'd explain his point of view. I know he's very experienced with ball technology, drilling, bowling, etc... so I'm assuming he must have a reason.


    Again. Facts are facts. Conjecture is conjecture. The above are facts and are indisputable.


    If I spray scented deodorizer on a pile of poo...I can make it smell like a flower....that doesn't make it a flower.

    Yes...you can get every ball ever made and that ever will be made...by the process of a small amount to a large amount of drilling and surfacing...to react in a similar fashion. Bowling ball companies would prefer that not be broadcasted....since their livelihood depends on convincing you there is something worth $200 that you should pay for. Very few companies advertise with the Amyers statement of "Buy Brunswick!! It can be polished to behave as weakly as a Rotogrip Haywire." Or "Buy Rotogrip!! It can be drilled in a way to almost hook as early as a Brunswick!"

    My point, with sarcasm added for humor and entertainment, is that the ORIGINAL question was about what would be a good replacement for a Mastermind Genius and the response was, "A Haywire would be a good replacement....etc..." As I stated above, I was simply wondering what Chuck meant....since the FACTS are that the balls are nothing like each other. YES...if the question was, "I have a MM Genius....but I hate it because it goes longer than I want and moves way more on the backend than I want....what would be an improvement for me?"....then okay.....now we have an entire of universe of interesting opinions and educated guesses. But that wasn't the question.
    First off I don't think anybody that's ever thrown a Haywire or seen it thrown by someone who can bowl would call it weak. The ball has the same cover as the hyper cell. Which I believe you've been a fan of in the past and may be a lot of things but weak isn't it

    Second I wasn't aware that changing the surface of a ball was akin to going to never never land. Honestly the cover is stronger on the Haywire than the MM Genius and the core in the Haywire is a little less aggressive. The MM core is only .15 asymmetrical so not a huge deal. Really polished they should be somewhat close. My personal guess would be the haywire will be a little stronger

  4. #14
    Bowling God Aslan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amyers View Post
    My personal guess would be the haywire will be a little stronger
    According to bowlingball.com's PerfecScale Rating system; which I've found to be true more often than not...

    Rotogrip Haywire: 197
    Mastermind Genius: 230

    That's not "minor". Most high end ball are 200+ The Hyper Cell is 226.

    I'm not saying the higher the number the better the ball...because if you have all 220-250 balls...you're gonna have some really bad 3rd games! But to compare a 197 to a 230...it may be a lot of things....but stronger ain't one of em. That's my opinion.

  5. #15

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    Even Rob agrees the Perfect scale is basically rubbish

  6. #16
    Bowling Guru Amyers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aslan View Post
    According to bowlingball.com's PerfecScale Rating system; which I've found to be true more often than not...

    Rotogrip Haywire: 197
    Mastermind Genius: 230

    That's not "minor". Most high end ball are 200+ The Hyper Cell is 226.

    I'm not saying the higher the number the better the ball...because if you have all 220-250 balls...you're gonna have some really bad 3rd games! But to compare a 197 to a 230...it may be a lot of things....but stronger ain't one of em. That's my opinion.
    They also rate the Intellect at 231 I can tell you for sure the intellect is much stronger than the Genius I know multiple people that throw both. As far as the number go we are supposed to believe the Nucleus core is worth 29 points versus the core in the disturbed. Great now I'm arguing someone else's fictional strength scale lol. unless someone is going to buy it and try both we will probably never really know.
    I am a proud member of Bowlingboards.com bowling forums and ball contest winner

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  7. #17
    Bowling God Aslan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NewToBowling View Post
    Even Rob agrees the Perfect scale is basically rubbish
    Rob thinks lots of things are rubbish.

    Quote Originally Posted by Amyers View Post
    They also rate the Intellect at 231 I can tell you for sure the intellect is much stronger than the Genius I know multiple people that throw both. As far as the number go we are supposed to believe the Nucleus core is worth 29 points versus the core in the disturbed. Great now I'm arguing someone else's fictional strength scale lol. unless someone is going to buy it and try both we will probably never really know.
    But see, that's my point. I'm not saying PerfectScale is the best way to determine ball strength. It's not. As Rob and others point out regularly, WHERE the ball hooks is more important than HOW MUCH. PerfectScale measures "how much".

    Now, are there better ways to evaluate "how much"? I haven't seen one. I've 'heard' various unproven theories such as:
    - It's all about RG
    - It's all about cover material
    - It's all about surface
    - It's all about the manufacturer

    All 4 theories have merit...just as I feel PerfectScale has merit...but absolutely ZERO have been proven...other than surface (see USBC robot video) to some degree.

    From my PERSONAL results...PerfectScale trumps cover material and to a lesser degree trumps manufacturer and RG. PrefectScale can't trump surface manipulation because that's done after you've purchased the ball so it can only factor in the OOB finish.

    So which or what combination of those factors should be used when assembling an arsenal? For my last two arsenals, they look like this:

    Arsenal #1
    I thought it would go Rhythm, Bullet Train, Encounter, Encounter, Slingshot. Why?

    Cover stocks: Solid, Hybrid, Pearl, Pearl, Pearl (5/5 stars, ideal)
    RGs: 2.50, 2.55, 2.51, 2.51, 2.544 (4/5 stars, highest RG 2nd in progression)
    Manufactuers: EBI, 900G, EBI, EBI, Brunswick (4/5 stars, strongest cover manufacturer last in progression)
    PerfectScale: ~200, 222.8, 203.8, 203.8, 157 (4/5 stars, Bullet Train rated significantly higher but #2)

    Results: The pro shop operator and coach moved the Bullet Train to #1 because it hooked noticeably more and sooner than the Rhythm. So in this case, RG and cover stock were less suitable predictors than PerfectScale.

    Arsenal #2
    I predicted Dark Encounter, Lethal Revolver, Asylum, Melee Jab, Loaded Revolver. Why?

    Cover Stocks: solid, solid, hybrid, pearl, pearl (5/5 stars, ideal)
    RGs: 2.50, 2.574, 2.50, 2.5012, 2.558 (4/5, Le.R. has highest RG, but is #2 in progression)
    Manufacturers: EBI, Brunswick, Storm, Brunswick, Brunswick (1/5 stars, should go Brunswick then EBI/Storm)
    PerfectScale: 209.9, 209.5, 194.1, 196.8, 204.8 (3/5 stars, by PerfectScale...the Lo.R. and Asylum should switch spots)

    And for this arsenal, I started also considering age (release date): 2012, 2011, 2014, 2014, 2011 (3/5 stars, balls from 2014 should perhaps be more in the front of the progression)

    Results?
    Le.Revolver, D. Encounter, Asylum, Melee Jab, Lo. Revolver

    Why?
    Mainly everything held true except that the Manufacturer difference between Columbia (EBI) and Brunswick made the solid Le.R. hook sooner despite the high RG. And for the Asylum and Melee Jab, the newer technology and cover stock trumped the expectation of the Brunswick balls hooking sooner and the perfectscale ratings.

    So from these two samples, it's hard to draw a definite conclusion. But if I were forced to speculate;

    My initial assumption that you should assemble the progression based on cover stocks and then RG...was not ideal because a PerfectScale rating in the 220s is significant and most likely is the result of 900Global's very strong S79 cover material on the Bullet Train. That material was enough to overcome the hybrid material and high RG.

    In arsenal #2, the cover stock again trumped the slight RG and PerfectScale variations...but when comparing balls of the same cover stock (in this case both solids), the manufacturer came into play because Brunswick routinely hooks sooner than EBI.

    So after looking at both scenarios/tests, the current "best strategy" for assembling an arsenal based on specs would be (in order of importance):
    1) Arrange the balls by cover. Cover trumps most everything which makes sense because we know how important surface is.
    2) skipped because the next 4 factors seem to be distant 3rds...
    3) Scan potential arsenal for large PerfectScale variations. If the numbers are close 200-210, 180-199, 220-230...it's not a big deal. But if you have a ball in the 220-230 range...it's going to hook more regardless of the other factors...even cover...UNLESS we're talking solid vs. pearl...then it's a "?"
    4) Manufacturers due to chemistry. Manufacturers all buy from their own suppliers of raw materials and resins. Radical hooks the most and most likely soonest (all things equal)...Storm/Rotogrip probably have the most backend, but tend to hook the latest. If all things are equal and the PerfectScale is aligned...Manufacturer is probably the next best to differentiate.
    5) Age. The Melee Jab and Loaded Revolver are very similar in specs...but the Melee Jab has far more energy downlane. It doesn't necessarily hook "sooner"...but it hooks more and doesn't roll out as easy. Realize though...that's a 3-YEAR difference. The closer you get with release dates...the less likely this'll be a huge factor. Ball companies want to pretend that they are on the edge of scientific breakthroughs every time they release a new model...yet behind closed doors know that they are essentially just recombining covers and cores and making them different colors to make sure they have 2 big releases per year.
    6) RG. I agree with Rob that RG is the engine in the ball...but thus far in my testing...it is cancelled out by all the other factors listed above. Still important. Still something you should be aware of when trying to develop a progression and/or arsenal...but not as much as the items listed above.

    So does that mean Arsenal #3 will be solid, hybrid, pearl with RGs all over the place?

    No. Of course not. Of matter of fact, as I've pondered Arsenal #3...I actually changed it up a little and currently plan to go:
    pearl, hybrid, pearl/216, 226 (polished), 157.5/Rotogrip, 900Global, Track/2012, 2013, 2012/2.49, 2.55, 2.57

    So, I'm actually trying to put together a better RG based arsenal...but either won't be able to because that middle ball is just too strong due to cover/PerfectScale OR I'll need to add some surface manipulation to get it to fit between those two balls. Originally, I was looking at two Ebonite balls instead of the 900Global...but then I'd have 3 balls at 2.49...two of them nearly identical except for PerfectScale...and I just didn't like the way that arsenal was shaping up so I made some changes.

    Unfortunately, I have a lot of low RG pearls...and I'm not a fan of surface manipulation because it ends up being a regular expense to have to keep getting your ball surfaced/polished every other week.

    So, Mudpuppy Cliff Notes: A LOT of factors, a LOT of moving parts, no conclusions as of yet, but the data (not just random observations of "people we saw") point to PerfectScale being potentially more accurate a predictor than Manufacturer, Age, and RG. Ironically, it's not "perfect"...but neither is any other method other than buy 3-5 of the same balls and having them all surfaced in a slightly different manner...thus almost guaranteeing you 3-5 different behaviors keeping all things equal. The question mark with that method is how long the ball retains that surface. I've heard as few as 2-3 games...and as many as 100 games. Most people would probably be more in line with Rob's estimate of around 35 games. With that estimate and an average resurfacing costing $20...that's almost $575/year. Do you want to have 3-5 balls and spend $575 on resurfacing? Or add 3 balls to your arsenal to give you different looks with their surface relatively kept constant? Individual choice I guess.
    Last edited by Aslan; 12-09-2015 at 04:18 PM.
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  8. #18
    High Roller vdubtx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aslan View Post
    According to bowlingball.com's PerfecScale Rating system; which I've found to be true more often than not...

    Rotogrip Haywire: 197
    Mastermind Genius: 230

    That's not "minor". Most high end ball are 200+ The Hyper Cell is 226.

    I'm not saying the higher the number the better the ball...because if you have all 220-250 balls...you're gonna have some really bad 3rd games! But to compare a 197 to a 230...it may be a lot of things....but stronger ain't one of em. That's my opinion.
    Perfect example of why the "Perfect Scale" is rubbish.

    I have both the Hyper Cell and the Haywire. I can tell you without a doubt, the Haywire is stronger than the Hyper Cell.

    High Sanctioned Scratch Game - 300(12) Hi Sanctioned Scratch Series - 822(3)
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  9. #19

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    My 900 Global Respect is 227 on perfect scale but never hooked or hit as hard as the Haywire. Same layout. I even had to sand and polish my Haywire because it read the lanes way too soon.

  10. #20
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    The basic problem with the PerfectScale is that, they use the manufactures hook ratings in the formula they use to calculate the number.

    That wouldn't be problem if the companies used the same hook rating system, But they don't and that can affect the comparisons.

    I wish I could find it again, back when I had first ran across the Perfect Scale. I found a page that told all the stuff they used to figured the number (except for the secret algorithm )


    Given if you want to play with numbers, you can try MO's formula suggestion.

    "Here's my best suggestion for using the undrilled ball #s to help anticipate ball reaction.

    1) Take the min. RG # and add 70% of the total diff to it. That'll give you the approximate RG of the PAP for about 80% of the layouts. The RG of the PAP is the only RG that matters to the motion of the drilled ball.

    2) Divide the intermediate diff. of the undrilled ball by the total diff. of the undrilled ball. That'll give you the diff. ratio. That tells you the potential of the ball to respond to friction. " (this mainly for Aysm.'s)
    Last edited by bowl1820; 12-09-2015 at 06:23 PM.

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