I would 💝 to win 🎳haywire

[Tony]

According to bowlingball.com's PerfecScale Rating system; which I've found to be true more often than not...

Rotogrip Haywire: 197
Mastermind Genius: 230

That's not "minor". Most high end ball are 200+ The Hyper Cell is 226.

I'm not saying the higher the number the better the ball...because if you have all 220-250 balls...you're gonna have some really bad 3rd games! But to compare a 197 to a 230...it may be a lot of things....but stronger ain't one of em. That's my opinion.

There are certainly some problems with the rating system, they have the Hy-road rated at 173 and the DV8 Outcast at 180 something, there is no comparison, the hy-road is much stronger
and that's just an example from balls I have been throwing. Of course the other thing to remember is many guys change the surface of the balls and the testing or guessing whatever they call it is with OOB finish (I assume). It's handy to have some relative scale to estimate differences between balls but it's not anywhere near perfect...

[Blacksox1]

Perfect example of why the "Perfect Scale" is rubbish.

I have both the Hyper Cell and the Haywire. I can tell you without a doubt, the Haywire is stronger than the Hyper Cell.

Vdub what is the layout on your Haywire? I too have a hypercell with a strong layout, but is tame going down the lane.

[Aslan]

Perfect example of why the "Perfect Scale" is rubbish.

I have both the Hyper Cell and the Haywire. I can tell you without a doubt, the Haywire is stronger than the Hyper Cell.

I 'might' buy that the Hyper Cell is close to the Haywire...they share the same cover and most of ball reaction is the cover not the core. So I'll 'buy' that comparison. But a comparison of the Haywire and MM Genius still makes no sense and that was the original argument.

Someone might want to let Rotogrip know however that their HP3 line is now stronger than their HP4 line. HP = "Hook Potential". They also need to change their comparison widget because 2/3 of the line examples, the Hyper Cell is depicted as stronger (depending how you measure 'strength' in terms of hook).

Sometimes I feel like we get in circular arguments on this site. One minute someone is talking about the importance of specs and RGs and technology...then the next minute we declare all numbers "bad" and all that matters is that the blueberry puke colored ball is really popular and we saw a guy throw it and it really moved so lets change the spec sheets and ad slicks accordingly.

And where's Rotogrip on this? I realize they are probably all out at the WSOB...but if you're a Rotogrip staffer or rep...lets hear it!! Here's some free advertisement to come in and talk about why the HP3 Haywire has so much more hook than the Hyper Cell; their HP4 flagship ball. Maybe they changed technology and the Hyper Cell is just outdated? I dunno. But rather than guess...lets go RG!! OWN IT.

[bowl1820]

I just looked up the Haywire and it seems to be a very good replacement for the Mastermind Genius.

Until ChuckR comes on and explains this statement he made, most of this discussion is pointless. You can't make a rebuttal until you know in what context he was making the statement.



As for which is stronger the "Mastermind Genius" or the "Haywire", That just depends on how you define "Strong" and whose comparisons your using.

Going by Bowling This Month's comparison,
http://www.bowlingthismonth.com/ball...-grip-haywire/

The Rotogrip "Haywire" has a higher hook rating (57) and a length of (10)
VS
The Brunswick "Mastermind Genius" which has a hook rating of only (54) and a length of (12)

Going just by that, The "Haywire" could be considered "stronger" because the higher hook rating, lower length and solid cover make it's better on longer and oilier conditions.


Now if we look at "backend" and "Torque"

The Brunswick "Mastermind Genius" has a Backend rating of (17.5) and Torque of (7.5)
VS
The Rotogrip "Haywire" which only has a Backend rating of (16), and Torque of (6)

Going just by that, The "Mastermind Genius" could be considered "stronger" because it has a stronger backend, Hybrid cover and is more flippy, So it's basically going to go long and snap hard, which is what a lot of bowlers equate as strength.

So is a ball "strong" because it goes long and snaps hard? or because it can bite through the oil and start turning earlier.

[Amyers]

Bowl is correct without more info we can't really know what chuck meant.

I do believe that bowl1820s numbers show the balls are mainly different do to surface and some polish on the haywire would make them even more similar. Which was my original argument.

Aslan two things as far as Arsenal construction goes your still missing the point. It's not that any one of those items you pointed out is ever going to be the best indicator of how to put an Arsenal together. It's that you have to consider them all. Also your Arsenal will never be always start with this ball first then move to ball number two when this happens. Learning to adjust and change balls is determined by experience and is an art not a science. Often times there are many correct answers and sometimes nothing works.

Your missing the point on surface too. No surface on a ball lasts forever. Every ball you own over a space of 10-30 games will migrate towards the surface of the lane around 4600 grit or so. So after 30 games you have an entire Arsenal of balls at 4600 grit or so. You have to maintain the surface on pearls or solids or anything else. Balls with lower grit surfaces will change faster but they are easier to update by hand than polished balls so it evens out

[Aslan]

Bowl1820 described the 'strength' thing very well. And I don't plan on a rebuttal from ChuckR...even though I'm sure and he and Rob have bickered to all hours of the night about this kinda stuff....neither have that "gene" that MikeW, Iceman, and I have where we love to debate.

And as I've said about surface, even though it's the most important, it's a variable that can only receive minor consideration when rating a ball's "strength" because it can be manipulated post-purchase. Think of it like this, you see a car commercial for the fastest car...lets say a Dodge Viper. Along comes Iceman and he says, "That's not the fastest car. It's nowhere near as fast as a Nascar stock car or a Formula 1 car." Would you agree? Of course it's not. So are the stock versions of the Nascar vehicles faster than a Viper? Nope.

And that's the point I was trying to make about surface. One of my teammates on Monday throws a sanded Ebonite Maxim (????). And she gets a little hook out of it. I throw a heavier version of that exact same ball (color and everything) as my spare ball....and even with far more rpms....it goes straight. Surface can make any ball into any ball. But whats the POINT of that? It costs extra money, it needs to be done at least every 2 months if not every month or every 2 weeks, and if you bowl on lanes that behave differently than you expect, and you don't see that in practice or the pro shop isn't open to put your ball on a spinner...you're stuck using a nice fancy ball with an incompatible surface...especially mid-game when it's illegal to change the surface.

So if someone tries to sell me on a Haywire, Outcry, Asylum, Sinister, Wrecker, etc... by essentially saying, "well, yeah, they are weaker than a Genius or Hyper Cell....but you can surface them to make them similar to those stronger balls" (whatever stronger definition you use)...then that's like telling a person to buy a Honda Civic because with $60,000 in aftermarket parts...you can make it similar in terms of speed and performance. Would a person buy a Viper and put a smaller engine in it so it'll perform more like a Civic? That's redunkulous and would result in a serious hit to a person's "man card".

I want to hear a nerdy, spec focused response from the minds at Rotogrip about this. And if they don't respond, then they miss the opportunity and I will continue to think their HP3 and HP2 lines are "garbagy". I'm open to change my mind....but they need to...???? You guessed it....OWN IT!

[Amyers]

Bowl1820 described the 'strength' thing very well. And I don't plan on a rebuttal from ChuckR...even though I'm sure and he and Rob have bickered to all hours of the night about this kinda stuff....neither have that "gene" that MikeW, Iceman, and I have where we love to debate.

And as I've said about surface, even though it's the most important, it's a variable that can only receive minor consideration when rating a ball's "strength" because it can be manipulated post-purchase. Think of it like this, you see a car commercial for the fastest car...lets say a Dodge Viper. Along comes Iceman and he says, "That's not the fastest car. It's nowhere near as fast as a Nascar stock car or a Formula 1 car." Would you agree? Of course it's not. So are the stock versions of the Nascar vehicles faster than a Viper? Nope.

And that's the point I was trying to make about surface. One of my teammates on Monday throws a sanded Ebonite Maxim (????). And she gets a little hook out of it. I throw a heavier version of that exact same ball (color and everything) as my spare ball....and even with far more rpms....it goes straight. Surface can make any ball into any ball. But whats the POINT of that? It costs extra money, it needs to be done at least every 2 months if not every month or every 2 weeks, and if you bowl on lanes that behave differently than you expect, and you don't see that in practice or the pro shop isn't open to put your ball on a spinner...you're stuck using a nice fancy ball with an incompatible surface...especially mid-game when it's illegal to change the surface.

So if someone tries to sell me on a Haywire, Outcry, Asylum, Sinister, Wrecker, etc... by essentially saying, "well, yeah, they are weaker than a Genius or Hyper Cell....but you can surface them to make them similar to those stronger balls" (whatever stronger definition you use)...then that's like telling a person to buy a Honda Civic because with $60,000 in aftermarket parts...you can make it similar in terms of speed and performance. Would a person buy a Viper and put a smaller engine in it so it'll perform more like a Civic? That's redunkulous and would result in a serious hit to a person's "man card".

I want to hear a nerdy, spec focused response from the minds at Rotogrip about this. And if they don't respond, then they miss the opportunity and I will continue to think their HP3 and HP2 lines are "garbagy". I'm open to change my mind....but they need to...???? You guessed it....OWN IT!

I'm just still not sure where you are going with this I'm guess you believe that the Mastermind line is Brunswick's top end ball but it's not. Originally the exile/intrigue were marketed as their top end balls with the mastermind line coming in as the step down unfortunately nobody really like the exile/intrigue so you can find them for $99 now. They have since replaced those with the Nirvana which seems to be better received. So if you want to look at it that way the entire mastermind line is HP3.

As far as changing the surface to make them closer I'm sure in 3-6 months there will be a ball with the same cover in a pearl so I guess you could wait unfortunately it's this mentality that causes the ball manufactures to produce every ball in a solid, pearl, and hybrid because the average bowler is too brain damaged to understand they could spend 200 bucks for a home spinner once or pay their pro shop $15-20 to do the same thing.

Their is no added cost to changing the surface of a bowling ball. The OOB surfaces on a bowling ball are not magic. They don't last any longer than the surface you get from your pro shop so your going to be spending that $20 bucks every 30 games whether it's to restore the OOB surface or the surface you choose. Otherwise you just have a ball that continues to perform at a lower level every time you bowl with it. It does happen slowly so you might not really notice it until it gets really bad but the loss of performance is real it's been tested out.

[vdubtx]

I want to hear a nerdy, spec focused response from the minds at Rotogrip about this. And if they don't respond, then they miss the opportunity and I will continue to think their HP3 and HP2 lines are "garbagy". I'm open to change my mind....but they need to...???? You guessed it....OWN IT!

You really need to stop placing so much emphasis on what a manufacturer says about their balls or nitpicking on the "numbers" of the ball. I don't care what "Line" the balls are in and placed by the manufacturer, I want to see it on the lane and do my own comparison before buying the ball myself. I won't buy a ball until I have seen it roll down a lane in league or a tournament that I am in so I can get my own visual to how it reacts to the lanes I am also bowling on.

With the Haywire, I had seen the ball at numerous leagues and even the US Open before deciding this was a ball for me. Not from information at the Roto-Grip website or from the "Perfect Score" rating that you seem to love.

I got caught last year with buying a ball for a specific lane condition and got bit as it didn't match the condition the manufacturer mentions it to be used for. Wasted $250 on it after initial purchase, plug and a re-drill and still not performing like they said it would. Do I wish I could get them to give me my money back, sure, but that is pointless and would never happen.

I really like the passion you have for this game, but you are trying to go about it in a "Textbook" way and it is just not that way on the lanes. You don't tell the lanes how to play, the lanes tell you how to play. I have seen some of your score posts and your ball progression, and I think you are putting too much emphasis on the specifics of the ball as told by the manufacturer or PerfectScore rating. You have to go out and do work on the lanes with it to see how it fits in your bag and adjust accordingly to what the lanes are telling you.

Don't get so caught up in the minutiae(I know, this is like talking to a brick wall). But, I am gonna say it anyway.

[Amyers]

I want to see it on the lane and do my own comparison before buying the ball myself. I won't buy a ball until I have seen it roll down a lane in league or a tournament that I am in so I can get my own visual to how it reacts to the lanes I am also bowling on.

With the Haywire, I had seen the ball at numerous leagues and even the US Open before deciding this was a ball for me. Not from information at the Roto-Grip website or from the "Perfect Score" rating that you seem to love.

Wow how many times have I told Aslan this!!! 1,2,3,4,5,6....................................... .................................................. ....................................

[Aslan]

This thread makes me want to eat 2 bags of pop rocks and drink a 2 liter soda and have my head explode.

MUDPUPPY SUMMARY (because I don't propose reading ANY of the first 3 pages of this nerd debate...:
1) General love of Haywire.
2) A couple people agreed they like it.
3) A member made an erroneous statement regarding ball comparisons.
4) Aslan disagree.
5) A few members tried to debate the numbers on his behalf.
6) They could not win the "#s argument against Aslan's superior intellect".
7) They then criticized the numbers as being useless.
8) Aslan asked for a Rotocrip professional/representative to comment but like the original poster and the other notable members that are intentionally avoiding this debate (again fearing Aslan's verbose nature and superior intellect)...because they fear that right now, Aslan is taking the heat for "numbers" and if they enter the debate...they will have to defend "numbers" versus other noteable members that are currently making a case that it's just surface and feel and "The Gift", etc...

So, to end this conversation as painlessly as possible.
1) Some people really like the Haywire.
2) ChuckR was incorrect, the Haywire is not a good replacement for the Mastermind Genius.
3) There is no agreement between members that bowling ball specs have any importance at all and even less support for rating systems like PerfectScale.
4) Bowling ball manufacturers and the inventor's of PerfectScale and those who believe in modern bowling, spec focused arsenal assessments are silent and we can only assume in agreement.
5) Given that the numbers mean nothing, choose balls based on color, smell, name, manufacturer that matches your bag, or really any other system you come up with because at the end of the day either you got the Gift or you don't...and it really doesn't matter if it's a Track300A or a Radical Guru...because anyone with a garage, basement, rotational tool of some kind, and some type of abrasive material can turn a Radical Guru into a Track 300A and vice versa.

Discussion ended. Haywire wins. Buy it, OWN IT, and while you are buying it and owning it...if you really wanna expand that Rotogrip (please don't confuse Rotogrip with RG...one matters and the other is fictional) LOVE...Aslan has a rather interesting piece...believed by some to be the greatest ball ever made...and one of few balls responsible for a 900 perfect series. I must say that if someone were to offer me a decent amount of $$...it could certainly be YOURs this Christmas...because obviously the fact that it carries like a yorkie trying to knock down cement posts...is most likely due to Aslan being NON-Gifted...I'm sure it's an instant 900 for everyone else. And why wouldn't it be? I think it was in the HP3 line...Rotogrip's ELITE line.

OWN IT.