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Thread: Is two-handed bowling unfair?

  1. #21
    Bowling Guru Amyers's Avatar
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    I've said it before I don't really have a dog in this fight but right now your seeing a few of the two handers have success in 5-10 more years how interested are you going to be watching the TV Finals where 4 out of the top 5 don't throw the ball two handed? Myself I'm just not sure how interested I'm going to be in that. It's not even remotely relatable to my game. At what point do you lose interest?

    I bowl with some seriously talented two handers and I've seen the way they simply can overpower a pattern that you just can't do bowling one handed. Right now I don't care if they get first and I finished 15th I'm still in the money and I don't quite bowl at that level anyway but ten years from now when there are 20 of these guys throwing this way I'm not sure I'm going to be so happy about it
    Last edited by Amyers; 02-18-2016 at 10:43 AM.
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  2. #22
    High Roller vdubtx's Avatar
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    Excellent post from Jason Belmonte on Facebook regarding the Brian Voss post this week.
    Have to post in 2 due to characeter limit. Also tried to make it easier to read here as when I copied and pasted it was one huge blob of text.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jason Belmonte part 1
    Rather long post...this is my comment on the blog Brian Voss wrote about ‪#‎2hands‬ bowling.
    If you had the attention of a large number of people? How would you handle it? What would you say and more importantly how would you say it?
    Knowing my place within the bowling industry as an accomplished bowler and knowing what I represent as a person, I take questions like these very seriously. It's something I think about daily. It's important that I choose my words carefully, make sure that what I say is accurate by using facts and logic rather then just having an opinion born out of emotion like so many others. I like to have fun and for the most part I stay out of some of the petty discussions that really hurt our sport.

    That being said, I just couldn't stay on the sidelines with everything that's been said in the last couple days. There are some who want to trample the sport I love and the way in which I compete. I think this sport has much to offer today and so, here a some thoughts.....

    Seems like the discussions center around technology and two handed bowling for the most part.
    I do not want to go too far in talking about technology in bowling other then to say, I trust the experts of today. The manufacturers, the USBC, the PBA all have smart people who are working in these areas, far smarter than I, and I have to trust in their direction. I do not have time at this point to obtain and research the factual data I want about technology in bowling and the positives it has on bowling or the skills/talents it takes to use/adjust with equipment to be a better player. I plan to look into it more however.

    Bowling should be incredibly thankful to the manufacturers of equipment. During a period where bowling hasn’t been able to find outside industry sponsor money, the manufactures (all of them) have given collectively, millions of dollars to support the sport at all levels. If the manufacturers do not make money how then can they inject funds back into bowling? More importantly, if they aren’t the ones injecting money back into bowling, who will? Would a roll back in technology at this point result in more equipment sold and therefore more dollars infused into the sport? I do not know the answer to that but I question those who think they do with some of the things being said. My message would be to be careful not to bite the hand that feeds you!

    However, I will happily entertain the subject about 2 handed bowling of which I do know a thing or two about.
    A comment was made that I take exception with:
    “The ascent of two handed bowling in my opinion is like a slow cancer to an already diseased sport. It has created massive polarity from the traditionalists to them.”

    This is an incredibly bold statement to make, one I completely disagree with. The suggestion that by simply bowling a different way to what is deemed ‘proper’ is cancerous to bowling is no more than an opinion. There is no factual data proving that an increase in popularity of bowling would occur if one particular style is chosen as the only style and another, the two handed delivery was eliminated.
    In fact, in talking with some experts that operate youth bowling in the U.S, the two handed revolution is growing the sport inside and around youth bowling for many reasons. The first is obvious, studies have shown that small children (less then 80 lbs or 36kgs) can't handle the minimum weight of the ball and so they start bowling with two hands at a younger age then they could with one handed bowling. That's a good thing. This segment and having them grow an attraction for the sport is where we see growth of the style more evident, right? So clearly if the style is a cancer in a disease ridden industry, we must see youth bowling suffering?
    Let’s take a look at some factual data about the future generations of bowling. There are a lot of positives going on in our sport!

    USBC Junior gold (6500+ members), USBC high school (100,000+ kids, 54000+ at the varsity level alone) and USBC collegiate (200+ schools) are at all time highs. With the introduction of the younger divisions at Junior gold the event has more then doubled in size over the past four years. I don't know how many kids bowling in this event today are using two hands (I’ll be attending this years event though, so I’ll see for myself) but I hear from attendees, both youth bowlers and parents alike, it's growing and gaining steam because the kids have more fun doing it and they are more competitive. They are developing their bowling skills faster due to the weight of the ball issue I talked about earlier. They can start earlier, knock more pins down earlier, begin a love for the sport earlier and see that love grow faster. These are all great things for the sport, I'm proud to say.

    (Side note, the USBC should be applauded for their involvement in the growth of youth bowling in the USA. These numbers prove they are doing many things right to protect and grow the future of our sport!)
    The most interesting trend, if these factual numbers were not interesting enough is that there is no polarity because of the style in the youth ranks or within the two handed bowling community. We two handers do not ‘hate’ one handers, we two handers do not claim that we are doing it right and everyone else is doing it wrong. So the only people who are making it an issue are the traditionalists who choose to disagree with the delivery for no reason other than because it’s not how they were taught the game.

    I decided to ask this question to see what a couple of the best youth bowlers in the world had to say regarding the style and whether or not the future stars of the game see bowling 2 handed as a cancerous infection like this HOF.
    “The kids don’t care nearly as much as the adults do. It’s the older generation complaining, the youth don’t complain at all.”
    18 year old Kameron Doyle, arguably the best 18 year old bowler in the world doesn’t agree with Mr. Voss, nor do any of his friends.
    “No one I know or hang out with think it’s cheating. I don’t know how people think it is – all bowlers have the same 60ft to the pins.”

    “I am not against two handed bowling at all – for a sport to grow, the sport needs to evolve. Your success brings excitement to the kids watching and they want to bowl like you. You bring more bowlers in, not push them out.”
    This said by a one handed, thumb using bowler who is the future of our sport.
    Another super star of the future is Matt Farber. A 21 year old, team USA member who echoes a similar view held by Kameron. Matt is also is a one handed, thumb using bowler.
    “Personally I have a very different outlook to two handed bowling because we’re more used to it, you don’t see older players use it. We see you and we see a lot of young bowlers doing it. We see it as normal. We have grown up competing against 2 handers. The older guys have competed against traditional styles their whole careers and now something new is beating them, it makes them bitter I think.”
    I asked Matt if his circle of friends has ever, or if he had ever heard other kids talk about banning the style because it was cheating or unfair.
    “NO, It’s never been discussed at all. If you’re going to limit a style then you are going to open a huge can of worms. What’s next, are we going to limit rev rates and back swing heights too?”
    The difference I see between an older more traditional thinker to the views of the younger generation is simple.
    One generation is accepting of change, the other finds it cancerous.

    Another comment that was made.....
    "First of all, there must be rules in place that dictate how this is game is played. EVERYONE must use one hand, and with this hand, the thumb must be used"
    Traditionalist are incredibly hypocritical if ever their argument is that they bowl the ‘right way’. What makes their technique right and the techniques before and after them wrong?
    Did a bowling God come down thousands of years ago invent the game that I am unaware of and proclaim that the intended way of bowling shall be exactly the way some see it?
    I mean if you want to get technical, couldn't the generation before this hall of famer argue that the game was intended to be played with one finger and the thumb? That's how the generation before him bowled... so why isn't that the right way?
    Let’s not ignore that if his mandate were to become law we would alienate those with disabilities. People like Josh McKinney who at the age of two had his arms and legs amputated. Check this video out to watch this legend bowl. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2YZBVuMAqU)
    Will you tell Josh he is now excluded from a sport he loves?

    I'm sorry Mr. Voss, I have the upmost respect for your accomplishments in the game but what you are communicating is simply wrong.
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  3. #23
    High Roller vdubtx's Avatar
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    Part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by -Jason Belmonte Part 2
    Another comment.
    “The accelerated progression that they obtain, as compared to what used to take many, many years to hone the necessary technique to deliver it with one hand is one of the reasons. Secondly, the moment that two hands are used, they obtain more spin than almost all of the traditionalists who spent years to develop the delivery with one hand. It is a totally different method of delivery. The fundamentals are NOT the same. Is it not enough to say, as evidenced in many tournaments of recent, that teenagers can now beat seasoned veterans, including the best in the world?”

    I disagree. I believe the accelerated progression of talent in bowling has to do with the fact that coaching is better now, with online resources that are at every bowlers finger tips and knowledge is shared faster and easier today.
    It was also stated that younger bowlers shouldn't be able to beat seasoned veterans.....

    Teenagers beating adults isn’t something new in sports either. In fact name me a sport where a 50 year old player even has a chance to compete with a 19 year old every single week?
    Look at every other major sport in the USA. Soccer (football), NBA, NFL, MLB, tennis and golf are perfect examples of young talent outperforming veterans each and every week. Why would bowling be different?
    The younger generation, with all this coaching available are just as talented but probably stronger, fitter and have developed techniques far different to their heroes of the past. But, make no mistake, it's their heroes that drive the affinity.
    Instead of bashing these kids with early success in bowling, disrespecting their accomplishments and criminating their talents, we should be celebrating their victories!
    Maybe it’s because bowling has never seen teenagers beat older veterans before? (Begin sarcastic tone) Wait a minute…..Norm Duke and Mike Aulby had success as teenagers? How dare two of the greatest bowlers to ever live beat the worlds best at the time, when they were teenagers. Surely they were cheating? (end sarcastic tone)
    The truly greatest players of all time don’t trap themselves in a battle with what the present is compared to what the past was - they adapt and win.

    With evolution in sports, we find ways to be better, more efficiently evolve. Through science we learn what foods to eat to improve performance, what exercises/training programs to do. Access to information is readily available online for all to read and learn. I’d be more worried if with all the resources out there and access to these resources, the progression of skill wasn’t accelerated from yesteryear.
    The fact is – there is no intended or proper way to bowl the ball, there are just different ways to do it while staying behind a foul line. Consider bowling a ball similar to high jump and how Dick Fosbury changed that sport. Was jumping over the bar backwards normal? No, but the object of high jump is about how high you can jump, not how you jump. Bowling is about how many pins you knock over, not how you do it. There are no extra points in bowling for correct and proper technique. It’s just who knocked over the most pins.

    The current PBA Player of the year is two handed, the current PBA Rookie of the year is two handed, the current PBA TOC and USBC Masters champions are two handed and we have thousands of two handed bowlers joining the ranks of competitive bowling.

    The only thing I see that’s cancerous about all this is all the negativity. Our sport deserves to be celebrated for some of the great things that are going on. I agree most of them are in the area of youth, but sooner rather than later this new generation will be adults of the bowling world and I look forward to watching that group in the future. Celebrating their accomplishments no matter how they deliver the ball.
    Two handed bowling is here, it's growing, it will continue to grow and I believe coupled that with all the one handed bowling that exists, the future shines brighter.
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  4. #24

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    Jason Belmonte **mic drop**

  5. #25
    High Roller vdubtx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by newtobowling View Post
    jason belmonte **mic drop**
    lol!
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  6. #26
    Pin Crusher
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    What next? In the future what if a person is born with 3 arms and wants to be a Boxer?

  7. #27
    Ringer Jessiewoodard57's Avatar
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    Thanks Vdubtx for posting that FB post By Belmo I follow his facebook and somehow missed that one. WOW that Josh McKinney is exciting! I had not thought about it until I saw that video of Josh McKinney but I too am very much a none traditional bowler in that I have no approach since I am disabled and bowl from a power chair. All of the league bowlers I bowl with are great and accept the fact that it might take me a few seconds longer to get lined up at the foul line to roll the ball. The bottom line is we compete against ourselves to get better and if you are not enjoying the game because of the way someone else plays it maybe that person needs to consider weather the game is for them. For some its all about the money for the rest of us its about the challenge and the fun getting there. Best feeling I ever had is having the front 7 and realize that the old man in the wheel chair has an audience. Had I not known they where there I might have done a lot better then the 235 I scored. Lets encourage the young and enjoy the game.
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  8. #28

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    That was excellent writing on the part of Mr Belmonte. As i have said i don't care for 2 handed bowling and like amyers said i have a hard time relating to it. I really just prefer watching the traditional style. Having said that the 2 handed style is here and we have to compete against it or quit. I made a comment a while back though and will reiterate this thought. My fear is that the 2 handed style while still somewhat of a novelty percentage wise on the pba tour could become overwhelming normal. At that point alot more people may have a hard time relating to it. I am referring to casual bowlers and the general public which still i believe are a certain percentage of viewership and have interest in the higher levels of bowling.

    We have all played basketball, football, soccer, baseball, etc. etc. etc. When we turn on the tv and watch professionals play these games while we can't perform at those levels we still see the game we played as a youth. Now we as long time bowlers and even new bowlers on this site understand that 2 handers are a evolution of the game but many casual fans may think: what is this? My fear is at that point our game is viewed as some sort of odd activity and not taken as seriously as now. All of us that know the history of the game and past relevance realize the seriousness given to this sport has already fallen massively in the past 3-4 decades. I believe this is one reason for the lack of sponsorship. So in the future if only the hard core bowlers and no casual fans bowler or otherwise can relate, how can we expect everyday companies to invest in advertising?

    I am not saying ban 2 handers for the future of the sport. But, coaches must continue to emphasize that you don't have to throw 2 handed like belmo, jesper, simonson, troup, etc to be successful.
    Last edited by fortheloveofbowling; 02-18-2016 at 01:43 PM.

  9. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by fortheloveofbowling View Post
    That was excellent writing on the part of Mr Belmonte. As i have said i don't care for 2 handed bowling and like amyers said i have a hard time relating to it. I really just prefer watching the traditional style. Having said that the 2 handed style is here and we have to compete against it or quit. I made a comment a while back though and will reiterate this thought. My fear is that the 2 handed style while still somewhat of a novelty percentage wise on the pba tour could become overwhelming normal. At that point alot more people may have a hard time relating to it. I am referring to casual bowlers and the general public which still i believe are a certain percentage of viewership and have interest in the higher levels of bowling.

    We have all played basketball, football, soccer, baseball, etc. etc. etc. When we turn on the tv and watch professionals play these games while we can't perform at those levels we still see the game we played as a youth. Now we as long time bowlers and even new bowlers on this site understand that 2 handers are a evolution of the game but many casual fans may think: what is this? My fear is at that point our game is viewed as some sort of odd activity and not taken as seriously as now. All of us that know the history of the game and past relevance realize the seriousness given to this sport has already fallen massively in the past 3-4 decades. I believe this is one reason for the lack of sponsorship. So in the future if only the hard core bowlers and no casual fans bowler or otherwise can relate, how can we expect everyday companies to invest in advertising?

    I am not saying ban 2 handers for the future of the sport. But, coaches must continue to emphasize that you don't have to throw 2 handed like belmo, jesper, simonson, troup, etc to be successful.
    Actually if a casual bowler who does not watch pba walks into a local alley and sees a decent 2 hander for the first time, they be mighty impressed with their speed and revs.

  10. #30
    High Roller Blacksox1's Avatar
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    Is two-handed bowling unfair? No, it is not.
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