USBC Declares Motiv Jackal/Jackal Challenge Approval Revoked

[Amyers]

Aslan no matter how long your post is you can't have a lawsuit or a suspension or revoke a title when there is no rule and no proof that anyone broke the rule you want to invent.

Any of the Motiv guys could wear a sign around there neck saying my ball has a underlined differential of .7 and the PBA can do nothing. It's not against PBA rules.

By the way how did that Tom Brady thing work out for the NFL. They may eventually win after losing the first time but in the publics eye the NFL already lost.

[Mike White]

Aslan no matter how long your post is you can't have a lawsuit or a suspension or revoke a title when there is no rule and no proof that anyone broke the rule you want to invent.

Any of the Motiv guys could wear a sign around there neck saying my ball has a underlined differential of .7 and the PBA can do nothing. It's not against PBA rules.

By the way how did that Tom Brady thing work out for the NFL. They may eventually win after losing the first time but in the publics eye the NFL already lost.

Somewhere in the rules it talked about the PBA acknowledging that the USBC was the governing body, but that was more related to having to be in good standing with the USBC to be eligible for the PBA not specifically about ball specs.

So it depends on how encompassing you want to go with the USBC being the governing body.

As far as I can tell, PBA uses a subset of what is allowed in USBC bowling.

i.e. if PBA isn't paid, you can't use the product in the PBA, but you can in the USBC.

[Aslan]

Okay. Agree to disagree.

I just think it's sad that when a manufacturer cheats and gets caught, the majority of this site just:

1) Blames the USBC for enforcing their rules.
2) Blames Radical or DV8 for reporting it.
3) Is perfectly fine if the cheating led to major titles being won.
4) Doesn't believe the PBA should care either way.
5) Doesn't care if it was intentional or if the athletes knew.
6) Think it's a minor issue.

It's just further evidence that bowling has lost so much prestige and status that, a PBA bowler would have to strip down nude, do cocaine on a National telecast, and punch a crippled kid before the general public would even go, "What? What happened at that bowling thing?" And that's the question at the heart of this...what's worse? That Motiv and possibly their athletes cheated? Or that nobody at the end of the day really cares?

[vdubtx]

Okay. Agree to disagree.

I just think it's sad that when a manufacturer cheats and gets caught, the majority of this site just:

1) Blames the USBC for enforcing their rules.
2) Blames Radical or DV8 for reporting it.
3) Is perfectly fine if the cheating led to major titles being won.
4) Doesn't believe the PBA should care either way.
5) Doesn't care if it was intentional or if the athletes knew.
6) Think it's a minor issue.

It's just further evidence that bowling has lost so much prestige and status that, a PBA bowler would have to strip down nude, do cocaine on a National telecast, and punch a crippled kid before the general public would even go, "What? What happened at that bowling thing?" And that's the question at the heart of this...what's worse? That Motiv and possibly their athletes cheated? Or that nobody at the end of the day really cares?

I don't think anyone but you thinks that Motiv cheated.
They had a manufacturing process that wasn't checked along the way and it made cores that were not exact to their original specs.

[Amyers]

I'm done with this too but I don't blame the USBC. I do wish they could have just fined Motiv 500k and grandfathered the balls but it's not in the rule book that way.

I don't blame whoever reported it personally if it's a competitor I find that funny

I just don't believe that 1. The increased differential had any effect on play. 2. That there are not other people playing fast and lose with the equipment that makes much more difference than a little differential.

Thier is no way to win here for the PBA so they did the right thing

All sports have things like this and way worse nor sure why you think the PBA is some bastion of integrity. I guess the PGA is the closest to this and I still figure most of the younger guys are on something.

I don't necessarily have to like it but I do have to live in reality.

[Aslan]

I just don't believe that 2. That there are not other people playing fast and lose with the equipment that makes much more difference than a little differential.

Not disagreeing Amyers...but why have rules and codes of conducts if the expectation is that everyone cheats and who cares? At what point does cheating actually cross the line in your mind? I feel like I've backed you in a corner...so much so that you've stated even the players knew and Motiv knew...you still don't think anything is wrong. You've tried so hard to win this argument, that you are now essentially stating:
1) Bowling ball companies all cheat and that's fine.
2) Bowlers all cheat and that's fine.
3) The PBA has no integrity and there is no expectation that they should have any.

I disagree, with all due respect, to all 3 of those premises.

I don't think anyone but you thinks that Motiv cheated.
They had a manufacturing process that wasn't checked along the way and it made cores that were not exact to their original specs.

I assume the same thing VDub...but I'm open-minded enough to recognize that there is a 'chance' your assumption is incorrect. You and others have decided to assume that Motiv had a slight manufacturing and quality control issue and didn't know until they read USBC's decision on Bowl.com. Yet;

A) They never denied knowing.
B) Their athletes have not been investigated nor denied knowing.
C) Motiv did not say anything in their original press release or subsequent press releases that they did not know, it wasn't intentional, nor that they are taking steps to ensure it doesn't happen again.

For some reason, most of the site's 'assumptions' are treated as fact...with no evidence to support them...yet my 'theories'....are treated as disruptive and beating a dead horse. Some, like Amyers and others, even go so far as to say they don't care if Motiv or their athletes knew or didn't know....intentional or accidental...doesn't matter. Do you (VDub) share that opinion? In other words, if your assumption is incorrect...and the deviation was intentional...and the athletes knew...does that change your opinion?

Hey, to each their own. I'm just making conversation. I hope I receive a response from the PBA by this weekend clarifying some things....but I doubt I will. At that point, I'll dig a little deeper...probably won't find anything...and the issue will be dead. I have a feeling in the meantime, Motiv and the PBA will arm twist the USBC into a settlement. And I have a feeling the PBA has already scolded DV8/Radical for starting this in the first place. In two months, it'll be forgotten and everyone will be using Jackals again...and I even think the USBC will change their rules and get rid of the 0.060 differential requirement. But we'll see. Once the newspaper folks start sniffing around...they might find something, they might not.

But just for my own curiosity....this question is for Amyers and VDub...but anyone else still stopping in, please comment as well:

"What would make YOU, personally, change your mind about this story?" In other words, VDub thinks it was a minor Quality Control issue. Amyers doesn't care if the company did it intentionally. So, what would change your mind? If next week, I show you 'X document' that shows 'X thing happened'....what would those be to make you move from your current camp/position to the "Aslan camp" of at least being 'interested' in getting more facts/details? Where is that line for YOU?

[vdubtx]

But just for my own curiosity....this question is for Amyers and VDub...but anyone else still stopping in, please comment as well:

"What would make YOU, personally, change your mind about this story?" In other words, VDub thinks it was a minor Quality Control issue. Amyers doesn't care if the company did it intentionally. So, what would change your mind? If next week, I show you 'X document' that shows 'X thing happened'....what would those be to make you move from your current camp/position to the "Aslan camp" of at least being 'interested' in getting more facts/details? Where is that line for YOU?

I would have 'X feelings' about it all.

[Aslan]

well, no response from the PBA to my e-mail.

On to Phase II. Last night I drafted letters to the USBC, PBA, Brunswick, and Motiv. I was going to put it on really cool letterhead of my new investigation company...which had a really cool logo and slogan...but after giving it some thought...and doing some internet research...I didn't want to do anything that would remotely lead to some type of mail fraud investigation. Technically, since I'm not asking for anything of any value...there'd really be no legal standing...but the definitions related to "misrepresentation" are extremely loose and vague....so, might as well just write it myself. I'll give them a couple weeks to respond before moving to Phase III.

Technically, I'm not sure if there is a Phase IV. I'm sure by then I'll have lost interest.

[Tony]

well, no response from the PBA to my e-mail.

On to Phase II. Last night I drafted letters to the USBC, PBA, Brunswick, and Motiv. I was going to put it on really cool letterhead of my new investigation company...which had a really cool logo and slogan...but after giving it some thought...and doing some internet research...I didn't want to do anything that would remotely lead to some type of mail fraud investigation. Technically, since I'm not asking for anything of any value...there'd really be no legal standing...but the definitions related to "misrepresentation" are extremely loose and vague....so, might as well just write it myself. I'll give them a couple weeks to respond before moving to Phase III.

Technically, I'm not sure if there is a Phase IV. I'm sure by then I'll have lost interest.

Seems everyone else lost interest a while ago, I would think you would have better things to do than plan strategy for this .....tilting at windmills.

[fordman1]

I have been asking around and could find no one who owned one. So put it to bed.