USBC Declares Motiv Jackal/Jackal Challenge Approval Revoked

[Hot_pocket]

I'm leaning toward a company telling. A pissed off employee loses their job and probably will never be hired for another ball company again ,if they find out who it was. Plus why would the ball just pop up on the radar like that with the field having multiple new comers. whoever did it already knew what the outcome was going to be.

[Mike White]

The ball manufacturers have greatly reduced the skill needed to bowl well

If you believe that to be true, it doesn't say much for your skill level.

Ball manufacturers have greatly reduced the skill needed to make the ball change direction which gives the ball sideways momentum, which reduces deflection.

But that in itself only increases the potential to score higher.

In the "modern" game of bowling, I don't equate scoring well with bowling well.

If the only thing to change was the creation of reactive resin ball, they would have been a passing fad.

On the oil patterns of the 80's, a resin ball would "burn up" very easily, and there would be no hold area for shots pulled left.

It's the allowable oil patterns that has significantly reduced the skill required to score well.


It's back in the late 80's, I think in response to Glenn Allison's 900 being rejected that the BPAA forced the ABC (now USBC) to put in motion the oil procedures that were guaranteed to pass inspection after an honor score was shot.

First thing I remember ABC trying was limited distance dressing. You could oil the lanes any ways you wanted, but couldn't apply oil more than 24 feet past the foul line.

Imagine trying to use reactive resin on 24 feet of oil.

Ball manufacturers helped the guy who couldn't get the ball to roll before resin, Kegel (and others) with it's computerized lane dressing machine, allowed any bowling center to consistently put out an easy oil pattern without having to hire an "expert" in lane conditioning. Synthetic lanes removed the grain of each board from influencing the ball reaction differently.

The result is people get back end reaction without learning how to properly release the ball, and improved accuracy (not by physically being more accurate) by tugging the ball up against the wall of oil.

The only skill remaining is selecting the right ball that when it exists the oil (up against the wall) will make enough move left to hit the pocket.

There are a select few who understand that limited skill required and can adjust for it when encountering different oil patterns in different centers.

There are some how happen upon a combination that works in a specific house, but if they move elsewhere, they haven't a clue.

And there are some who simply haven't a clue no matter where they go.

My Laughlin league had 2 people who averaged in the 230's. So they were fairly consistent, and knew what was needed to score well in our regular house.

When we went to Laughlin, the oil pattern was from 6 to 6 instead of the 10 to 10 we normally bowled on.

One of the two 230's shot 740, while the other didn't break 500.

The guy who didn't break 500 either didn't know how to adjust, or didn't have the equipment needed to move from the end of the pattern to the pocket.

So even with a 230 average, doesn't mean you have a full set of skills.

[Mike White]

I'm leaning toward a company telling. A pissed off employee loses their job and probably will never be hired for another ball company again ,if they find out who it was. Plus why would the ball just pop up on the radar like that with the field having multiple new comers. whoever did it already knew what the outcome was going to be.

you have listed in your equipment a gamebreaker.

If that is the original, not the gamebreaker 2 then you have a ball that exceeds current Diff limits even more than the Jackel/Jackel Challenge.

The difference is the ball existed before the rule was moved to .060.

If USBC really feels that exceeding .060 gives the bowler an advantage, they should have banned the gamebreaker rather than grandfather it.

It shows that for the USBC the integrity of the sport takes a back seat to convenience.

[Aslan]

If you believe that to be true, it doesn't say much for your skill level.

See...you're right...but not in the way you think.

You ARE right...if I'm not averaging >175 on a house shot...given the equipment I have access to...then I'm not very good.

Okay...SHOULD I be? Should a person who started bowling in 2013...roughly < 3 years ago...be one of the top bowlers in his/her league? Should John Burkett be able to just waltz into professional bowling and win titles?

See, I agree that I'm not very good. Where I differ with most bowlers is:
1) I can admit that...and do.
2) I don't think thats a bad thing...to have to gain experience in order to be "good".
3) I prefer to learn the game, learn the technique, and learn how to adjust...rather than just buying the newest ball release by Storm every 6 months and let the ball raise my average.

I use older equipment than almost any serious bowler...and some non-serious bowlers....knowing that by doing so...I am at a disadvantage. I throw a stroker shot...knowing that my carry will suffer and I'll have to actually shoot spares. I force myself to shoot plastic at all corner leaves on both sides....because if I can't throw a ball straight...I don't deserve to pick up the spares. I bowl in multiple houses...I join challenge/sport shot leagues....despite not being able to even average what a vacant spot would net. I join tournaments...I take all challengers (even you)...and I spend $150+ on lessons from the best pros in bowling.

See, I think that is the level of dedication needed to get to the next level. Regardless of equipment. You think PDW or Norm Duke...if throwing a urethane ball would be a 150 average bowler? They can bowl with any ball you give them and win 98% of the time against an average house bowler. When a person has THAT skill level...then they are good.

Picking up a Crux and winning a side pot or getting a 300-game bouncing the ball off a dry breakpoint...I guess I could do that if I wanted to....but what's the point? If 300s aren't as meaningful as they once were....then why focus any effort on obtaining one? I watch bowlers....with some of the worst technique I've ever seen....roll 269s and 279s. I compete every Saturday against guys with terrible form and no ability to adjust and can barely pick up corner spares. Sometimes they win...and they SHOULD. They've been bowling for 30 years in the same house....I've been bowling less than 3 years and less than 1 year in this house.

But...BUT...I have an advantage. They can't adjust. The youngster that palms the ball...can't hit a 10-pin...he doesn't understand that at that rev rate...he'll need a plastic ball to pick up that pin. The big guy...he can shoot some high scores....but I beat him 2 out of 3 games last night...his shot just wasn't working...and he didn't have another shot or even another ball. The other old guy...my real competition...was an excellent spare shooter...but he continued to use the Hyper Cell...even when it was relatively clear that ball was losing energy before hitting the pocket. He picked up his spares...and I beat him Game 2...not because I'm better....but because I adjusted much earlier to a different ball...I was able to see in 2 frames what took him 2 games to see.

So, you're right...but not in the way you think. I shouldn't be a better bowler...it should take me 30 years to average 190 in a league...not 1.5 years. It should take every other day practice sessions and study and years of shooting spares...to get to the level where a person bowls in tournaments...not 6 months of bowling on a THS. But...it doesn't...unless you want it to. If people want to just average 220 and get 7 300-games before they die...I'm sure Storm will have a fancy new ball in a month or so...just stay in the same house...eventually you'll get there. But don't be surprised or have an ego heart attack...when you go to sweeps or try the USBC Open...and average 135-155.

I easily beat my anchors at sweeps...both leagues I've went with...actually even the 3rd league in Laughlin. They think they average higher than me on an easy THS...and that means they're better. But while they were out getting drunk in a night club the night before...I was practicing 6-10 games in the AM and 6-10 games in the PM. While they were bragging about their 205 averages...I was frustrated that my 190 average wasn't "real". I know how to bowl, and adjust...and I'm honest when I miss...that it's not bad luck or bad pin placement...it's a bad shot. They just get pissed off at the center, or that lanes, or the spotting, or the approaches.

And I will remind you....beacause I can...that I'm 3-2 against you in competition. Granted...before you even say it...yes, in our league play...I think I only had a higher series one week. But...like I said to Iceman...you SHOULD beat me....you've been bowling almost as many years as I've been alive. How pathetic would it be if I actually WAS better than you?

[Mike White]

That picture describes every reaction on the Motiv Facebook page.

Everybody with a Jackal is whining. We'll see how whiny they are when their ball becomes a collector's item..."first time USBC enforced a rule since 1973"....when Paul Colwell made himself pass out trying to soak bowling balls in MEK in his hotel room bathtub.

It's odd that in denying Glenn Allison's 900 series they were enforcing a rule, but with the soakers, there wasn't a rule to enforce, so they made a new rule.

One rule I know isn't enforced is the 3 units of oil minimum everywhere on the lane where oil is applied.

1st off most computerized lane machines can't apply oil on all 39 boards.

so the 1 board, left and right, never receive ANY oil.

2nd, on a THS, the widest load assigned to the machine isn't from 2 to 2, so again, some boards never receive ANY oil.

[Mike White]

See...you're right...but not in the way you think.

I am right in exactly the way I think.

The ball manufacturers have greatly reduced the skill needed to bowl well

The only effect ball manufacturers have created is to give a person more back end motion than their release skill would allow with pre-modern balls.

Ball manufactures didn't wall up the lanes.

So given ball manufacturers reduced the skill needed to achieve good back end motion, and you still can't achieve good back end motion, then there is a significant lack of release skill on your part.

Also as for years of bowling, if I had continued to bowl from the time I started until now, or only missed a year here and there, then your lack of experience might be valid, but I didn't bowl at all between 1992 and 2012.

Since the game completely changed during that time, I was effectively starting from scratch.

The difference was, I started with a higher bowling IQ in 2012 than you did.

With all of the information available today, you've had plenty of opportunity to catch up.

The problem is, a lot of the information available today even from coaching is really worthless.

For most people who want to improve their scores, their options are easier lanes, and different balls.

I stick with the idea to improve, all I need to do is make better shots, and make them more often.

Oh, and get more physically fit.

Too many times I feel back pains as I release spare balls.

And I need to figure out how to digest the basket ball I seem to have swallowed.

[Aslan]

My health is holding strong. Will it for a decade? I dunno.

I've always had a bad knee and then kinda messed my ankles up a bit in high school/college. Fortunately, as long as I don't over do things....the knee has been fine. It would probably be even "more fine" if I dropped 30-40 pounds. The annoying thing lately has been the elbow. I tried a more under the ball release...and was using my fingers too much...ended up straining a ligament or tendon in my elbow. There's no permanent damage....but the only way for it to fully heal is to stop bowling for awhile...which I have been reluctant to do. It doesn't limit me much during standard practice and league play...but if I ever graduated to a tournament scene where I was doing 9 games a day for a week...I might have to start doing the physical therapy on the knee and let the elbow heal up. I'm getting tired of grimacing whenever I go to take a book or binder off a shelf.

[billf]

The questions are:
1) Why did USBC decide to do this? Is it a response to a complaint?
2) If this is just an uptick in their policing efforts...are other ball manufacturers getting nervous?
3) Did Motiv do this on purpose? Or was this something they thought passed...and something failed?
4) Motiv uses similar cores in other balls. Were all other Motiv balls tested and found to be okay? What about planned releases for summer? Will Motiv have to scrap their new releases?
5) The USBC has stated it won't take anything (titles, winnings, etc...) away from bowlers who unknowingly used these balls in competition. Will the PBA back that stance? What if the Motiv pro bowlers KNEW they were illegal? Does that change anything?

This could be HUGE for Motiv. They're a small company...and in my opinion have been the most successful since DV8 and before them Storm...at kinda taking a significant market share of an industry that is tough to break into.

I anticipate Motiv must have known this was coming. I seriously doubt the USBC blindsided them with this public release. That means Motiv is doing their own in-house testing to verify the tests by the USBC...and likely considering appeal options...and contingency recall options.

But at this point....outside the USBC and Motiv...I bet very, very few people know anything about this.

On the upside:

1) The USBC is finally doing their job...unafraid of the ball manufacturers...at least as it appears.
2) This is the kinda story that makes bowling a topic for discussion in the national media. I wouldn't be shocked if it gets mentioned on CNBC or something like that.

1. A certain ball company who has more family employed by the USBC than any other manufacturer purchased a few dozen cases of these balls, wrote spin me on the boxes and sent them to USBC
2. So far no other balls have been "field tested" even those close to the differential limits. That will probably change once people realize how political this is
3 & 4. A similar core isn't used in other balls. It's the same core that has been used, tested and approved in 7 previous releases. Some of these vintage balls that were still NIB have been checked and passed. Which brings us to a possible bad mold at the plant scenario. If that is the case then of course Motiv didn't know. Anybody I've met who is on Motiv's payroll in any way, shape or form has comes across as helpful and genuine. I still communicate with Angela Wilt (motiv girl here) frequently even after she left Motiv for Brunswick. All that being said I believe it was a mistake but if it turns out Motiv did this on purpose I will never use another product of theirs again. I said that in the past and still haven't bought a new 900RotoStorm. A company lies to me once and I'm done with them, period.
5. Once a ball is drilled the differential changes. Most pros have their stuff drilled on the truck so not sure any of them would have bothered checking the true diff before doing so. I know Graham Fach so I can say with certainty that he did not know.

[Aslan]

Thanks Billf.

I guess what I'm waiting for is the PBA to weigh in. The longer they wait, the more the speculation builds.

If I were the USBC, I'd have done exactly what they did and said it exactly the way they said it.

If I were Motiv, I would have responded the way they did....but added something to the effect of "We have identified a quality control issue in our production facility that we believe caused this outcome. We have resolved that quality control issue and are confident that this will not happen in the future and have put multiple safeguards in place to ensure that. Furthermore, we absolutely guarantee the PBA and bowling fans that our talented Motiv athletes were not aware of the compliance issue nor was anyone in our organization until the USBC brought it to our attention."

If I were the PBA, I'd respond IMMEDIATELY after this news...with something to the effect; "The PBA takes non-compliant equipment very seriously and are currently investigation the matter. We have no reason to suspect that foul play was conducted by Motiv or it's athletes but are currently conducting a thorough investigation. The PBA will also be working with the USBC and our ball manufacturing partners to put additional controls in place to eliminate the possibility of anything like this occurring in the future. Our full investigation report will be available once said investigation is completed."

See...by making those statements, Motiv is admitting the problem and identifying that they have found the cause while at the same time making it clear that this was not intentional, it was not known by itself or it's athletes, and that it is already resolved. By the PBA making the above statement, they are assuring fans that they care and are aware.

What speaks VOLUMES...often times is not what IS said, but what is NOT said. By Motiv saying what they did...they left themselves wide open for the assumption that they knew about this. By not saying specifically what the cause was and assuring people they've resolved it...it leads one to believe they "kinda knew" and therefore don't want indict themselves or commit purgury. They also leave their athletes open to criticism...because by NOT saying the athletes had no idea....it leads one to speculate they DID have an idea.

The PBA, on the other hand, by saying NOTHING...is giving the impression that either:
A) They think there's a story, a negative story, and hope that if they close their eyes and tap their heels together....everyone will forget this in a couple weeks.
or
B) They simply don't care.

No other major sport or hobby (football, hockey, baseball, Nascar, horse racing, chess, darts, poker, basketball, etc...) would simply stay silent when equipment used in their major competitions was exposed as being non-compliant. Olympic medals would be taken away. Championship banners taken down. Fines and penalties assessed against players and the organization. But at LEAST, there would be an investigation...at LEAST. How many millions of dollars and points taken away...have occurred in Nascar each race when cars are found to be out of compliance? Look what the NFL did regarding slightly deflated footballs. Bats and sticks can be checked by referees and umpires...pine tar and vasoline can get a pitcher thrown out. If a team in the NBA uses smaller hoops or a 9.5ft net...it's gonna be an issue!

So, by the PBA standing idly by...no comment...no statement...they are either hiding something or they are simply incompetent. Even if that last statement is false....by saying NOTHING....that will lead people to those assumptions. And more insulting to us bowling fanatics....is that the PBA has really missed the boat on getting some actual PRESS...some actual media coverage...some actual relevance on the national stage. This is a golden opportunity for the PBA to be noticed, even if it's not positive press...it's still press. And the fact that they are actual professionals...who get paid...and they can't see this while a low-level nobody like me can...is sad, sad, sad.

If I don't see something from the PBA soon, I guess I just need to go old school and start writing letters to newspapers and media. Eventually, the PBA will be forced to respond...the only difference is once they are FORCED....they look either guilty or incompetent...and that's on them.

[Amyers]

Thanks Billf.

I guess what I'm waiting for is the PBA to weigh in. The longer they wait, the more the speculation builds.

If I were the USBC, I'd have done exactly what they did and said it exactly the way they said it.

If I were Motiv, I would have responded the way they did....but added something to the effect of "We have identified a quality control issue in our production facility that we believe caused this outcome. We have resolved that quality control issue and are confident that this will not happen in the future and have put multiple safeguards in place to ensure that. Furthermore, we absolutely guarantee the PBA and bowling fans that our talented Motiv athletes were not aware of the compliance issue nor was anyone in our organization until the USBC brought it to our attention."

If I were the PBA, I'd respond IMMEDIATELY after this news...with something to the effect; "The PBA takes non-compliant equipment very seriously and are currently investigation the matter. We have no reason to suspect that foul play was conducted by Motiv or it's athletes but are currently conducting a thorough investigation. The PBA will also be working with the USBC and our ball manufacturing partners to put additional controls in place to eliminate the possibility of anything like this occurring in the future. Our full investigation report will be available once said investigation is completed."

See...by making those statements, Motiv is admitting the problem and identifying that they have found the cause while at the same time making it clear that this was not intentional, it was not known by itself or it's athletes, and that it is already resolved. By the PBA making the above statement, they are assuring fans that they care and are aware.

What speaks VOLUMES...often times is not what IS said, but what is NOT said. By Motiv saying what they did...they left themselves wide open for the assumption that they knew about this. By not saying specifically what the cause was and assuring people they've resolved it...it leads one to believe they "kinda knew" and therefore don't want indict themselves or commit purgury. They also leave their athletes open to criticism...because by NOT saying the athletes had no idea....it leads one to speculate they DID have an idea.

The PBA, on the other hand, by saying NOTHING...is giving the impression that either:
A) They think there's a story, a negative story, and hope that if they close their eyes and tap their heels together....everyone will forget this in a couple weeks.
or
B) They simply don't care.

No other major sport or hobby (football, hockey, baseball, Nascar, horse racing, chess, darts, poker, basketball, etc...) would simply stay silent when equipment used in their major competitions was exposed as being non-compliant. Olympic medals would be taken away. Championship banners taken down. Fines and penalties assessed against players and the organization. But at LEAST, there would be an investigation...at LEAST. How many millions of dollars and points taken away...have occurred in Nascar each race when cars are found to be out of compliance? Look what the NFL did regarding slightly deflated footballs. Bats and sticks can be checked by referees and umpires...pine tar and vasoline can get a pitcher thrown out. If a team in the NBA uses smaller hoops or a 9.5ft net...it's gonna be an issue!

So, by the PBA standing idly by...no comment...no statement...they are either hiding something or they are simply incompetent. Even if that last statement is false....by saying NOTHING....that will lead people to those assumptions. And more insulting to us bowling fanatics....is that the PBA has really missed the boat on getting some actual PRESS...some actual media coverage...some actual relevance on the national stage. This is a golden opportunity for the PBA to be noticed, even if it's not positive press...it's still press. And the fact that they are actual professionals...who get paid...and they can't see this while a low-level nobody like me can...is sad, sad, sad.

If I don't see something from the PBA soon, I guess I just need to go old school and start writing letters to newspapers and media. Eventually, the PBA will be forced to respond...the only difference is once they are FORCED....they look either guilty or incompetent...and that's on them.

I'm just not sure what your wanting from the PBA. At the tine of the two wins that you have mentioned the balls were legal now they are not what's for the PBA to comment on? Do you really expect the PBA to go after Motiv when the only people keeping it solvent are the bowling ball companies? Do any of us actually believe the PBA has an investigative arm that are out there interviewing the Motiv company or their sponsored bowlers? Get Real.

The only guidelines the PBA has on balls are that they have to meet the USBC approval. At the time the tournaments were played the balls were on the approved list. The USBC didn't open the can of worms of going back and saying wins were forfeited prior to the date that they ruled the balls ineligible why would the PBA.