USBC Declares Motiv Jackal/Jackal Challenge Approval Revoked

[NewToBowling]

Whether Fach or Faukner knew about USBC approvals or not we will never know. I'm leaning towards the fact that they didn't know.

And yeah, bowling ball manufacturers are their bread and butter revenue stream. So PBA nor USBC is really going to lay the hammer down.

[Aslan]

I'm just not sure what your wanting from the PBA. At the tine of the two wins that you have mentioned the balls were legal now they are not what's for the PBA to comment on? Do you really expect the PBA to go after Motiv when the only people keeping it solvent are the bowling ball companies? Do any of us actually believe the PBA has an investigative arm that are out there interviewing the Motiv company or their sponsored bowlers? Get Real.

This is part of the problem with bowling...you and others respond to stuff like this with a "who cares" mentality. Well, I guess nobody cares...and thus you have a sport that is no longer relevant.

You can't have it both ways. You can't want bowling to be more popular, and then apologize for the PBA or USBC when they miss an opportunity to make bowling relevant.

If it doesn't matter...it doesn't matter...and neither does bowling. ESPN airs bowling on it's network...not one mention of this story. If the ONE network...that would benefit from mentioning bowling...doesn't....even in the rare times where there is a "story"...then that speaks volumes about the decline of bowling.

The only guidelines the PBA has on balls are that they have to meet the USBC approval. At the time the tournaments were played the balls were on the approved list. The USBC didn't open the can of worms of going back and saying wins were forfeited prior to the date that they ruled the balls ineligible why would the PBA.

So, you're saying that if Motiv knew, and told Fach and Falkner that the Jackal and Jackal Carnage were over 0.060 but nobody actually checks...so go ahead and use them...it might give you an advantage...you're (Amyers) saying that's okay? Because at the time the USBC assumed they met the standard? That ridiculous. A baseball player can't use a bat with a metal core...because the wood bats tested 2 years earlier met the specs...before they added the metal core.

The facts are:
1) Motiv made a non-compliant product.
2) Two relatively unknown Motiv pro staff bowlers won major titles throwing those balls.

I'm 79% sure, Motiv didn't know and their athletes didn't know. That means, it's a non-issue. BUT....the PBA needs to investigate this. They can't just sit back and say, "Oh....that's a USBC problem....it doesn't matter." It sends multiple wrong messages...not the least of which is the PBA is SO irrelevant....they won't even bother to comment or even make an "effort".

Does the PBA have an "investigative arm"....of course not. So...?? It's okay to cheat? I mean, there's no investigative arm...so, what can the PBA do right? So, yeah...use whatever...as long as the ball manufacturer pays their equipment PBA dues...that's all that matters. If Bob Smushkin (made up bowler) wins with a ball determined after the fact to be 0.5" greater in diameter than the allowable....oh well.

And that's fine...just don't whine about not being in the Olympics. If the integrity of the game is so flimsy and unimportant...just accept the reality that the PBA is nothing more than a fee collection agency that couldn't care less. And from now on...every bowler that wins a major title gets an (*) because they bowl in the "we don't care about equipment era" where pros routinely use non-compliant equipment with no consequences.

Everyone wants to blame Radical. That's like blaming an opposing baseball team for reporting that a batter is using pine tar or a pitcher is using vasoline or a hockey player has a non-conforming stick or a Nascar driver has too high a spoiler. So now it's the whistle-blower that is in the wrong?? I personally think it's sad...beyond sad...PATHETIC that the USBC has to rely on other companies to do their compliance testing...that's whats sad.

Let em do nothing. I dare the PBA to do nothing and say nothing. I'm not going to double-dog-dare them...because then they have to stay quiet....per the rules of double-dog-daring. But I dare them to do nothing. They'll end up with press they absolutely don't want...scandal...incompetence....intentional....fr aud...willfully...etc... Words they don't want to hear and don't want to read. Staying AHEAD of it...means controlling the narrative....and shame on them for not knowing this.

[scottymoney]

From an article on the matter on Jeff Richgels 11thFrame.com website (3/15/16)....

"Most notable to fall under that category are Faulkner and Fach, who both used the JACKAL CARNAGE in winning their major titles.

PBA CEO and Commissioner Tom Clark said in an exchange of messages Tuesday that anything won by any player throwing the JACKAL or JACKAL CARNAGE in PBA competition prior to Tuesday would not be impacted by the USBC ruling.

“They were approved at the time,” Clark said.

But the balls are illegal now and will be removed from the PBA truck, he added.

“It has been rewarding seeing MOTIV grow,” Clark said. “The people involved with the company are first class and I am sure they will do everything they can to make things right for their customers.”

As a competitor, I view anyone who used the balls before Tuesday as innocent victims of a sort as they had no way of knowing what they were using might have been illegal — I say “might have been” because without USBC detailing its tests we have no way of knowing what percentage of JACKALs and JACKAL CARNAGEs might have been illegal.

For all we know at this point, the balls thrown by Faulkner and Fach might have been 0.060 or even less."

There you go Aslan, you can stop the hunt you were on. They took the USBC road which I think is the most obvious and expected.

also in the same article Jeff writes "Others, including MOTIV competitor Storm, believe that bowlers who own the balls should continue to be able to use them. I am working on a follow-up story explaining the science of RG, differential, etc. in great detail and it includes Storm's official position and reasoning on why it think its competitor is being punished too harshly."

[NewToBowling]

I guess the bigger issue is why aren't balls checked prior to tournaments. I understand you can't do it for all tournaments but surely for the Majors you should check ALL balls prior.

Everyone seems to have been asleep at the wheel.

[Amyers]

This is part of the problem with bowling...you and others respond to stuff like this with a "who cares" mentality. Well, I guess nobody cares...and thus you have a sport that is no longer relevant.

You can't have it both ways. You can't want bowling to be more popular, and then apologize for the PBA or USBC when they miss an opportunity to make bowling relevant.

If it doesn't matter...it doesn't matter...and neither does bowling. ESPN airs bowling on it's network...not one mention of this story. If the ONE network...that would benefit from mentioning bowling...doesn't....even in the rare times where there is a "story"...then that speaks volumes about the decline of bowling.

Personally I don't believe that their was any advantage to a .010 differential or less. Nor do I think it's a story from the PBA perspective. So you're correct I don't care. If you told me they were throwing matches due to betting or using steroids or some other way of altering the balls significantly I would find myself more outraged but since the differences wouldn't make a real world difference I'm not upset about it. The only reason I'm supportive of what the USBC did in removing the balls from competition is that their has to be a line somewhere but I wouldn't have been upset if they had just fined Motiv a bunch of money and grandfather the balls in either. They didn't have that option as 16k is the max and that wouldn't be enough to discourage future bad actions.

So, you're saying that if Motiv knew, and told Fach and Falkner that the Jackal and Jackal Carnage were over 0.060 but nobody actually checks...so go ahead and use them...it might give you an advantage...you're (Amyers) saying that's okay? Because at the time the USBC assumed they met the standard? That ridiculous. A baseball player can't use a bat with a metal core...because the wood bats tested 2 years earlier met the specs...before they added the metal core.

I don't think that happened for one but to use your analogy with baseball bats if we found out that the bat manufacturer had trees that were to hard in a couple of batches of bats at the end of the season would they go back and replay those games? I doubt it. Would they remove those numbers from the players career totals? No way. They didn't even do that for steroids which we know made for inflated numbers.

The facts are:
1) Motiv made a non-compliant product.
2) Two relatively unknown Motiv pro staff bowlers won major titles throwing those balls.

I'm 79% sure, Motiv didn't know and their athletes didn't know. That means, it's a non-issue. BUT....the PBA needs to investigate this. They can't just sit back and say, "Oh....that's a USBC problem....it doesn't matter." It sends multiple wrong messages...not the least of which is the PBA is SO irrelevant....they won't even bother to comment or even make an "effort".

Does the PBA have an "investigative arm"....of course not. So...?? It's okay to cheat? I mean, there's no investigative arm...so, what can the PBA do right? So, yeah...use whatever...as long as the ball manufacturer pays their equipment PBA dues...that's all that matters. If Bob Smushkin (made up bowler) wins with a ball determined after the fact to be 0.5" greater in diameter than the allowable....oh well.

And that's fine...just don't whine about not being in the Olympics. If the integrity of the game is so flimsy and unimportant...just accept the reality that the PBA is nothing more than a fee collection agency that couldn't care less. And from now on...every bowler that wins a major title gets an (*) because they bowl in the "we don't care about equipment era" where pros routinely use non-compliant equipment with no consequences.

Everyone wants to blame Radical. That's like blaming an opposing baseball team for reporting that a batter is using pine tar or a pitcher is using vasoline or a hockey player has a non-conforming stick or a Nascar driver has too high a spoiler. So now it's the whistle-blower that is in the wrong?? I personally think it's sad...beyond sad...PATHETIC that the USBC has to rely on other companies to do their compliance testing...that's whats sad.

I do agree that it is "Sad" I also believe that for the $12 dollars a year we pay to the national sanctioning body It doesn't surprise me that there isn't a robust testing program. As far a Radical goes with it I'm not mad nor have I posted that I was. Personally I find very funny.

Let em do nothing. I dare the PBA to do nothing and say nothing. I'm not going to double-dog-dare them...because then they have to stay quiet....per the rules of double-dog-daring. But I dare them to do nothing. They'll end up with press they absolutely don't want...scandal...incompetence....intentional....fr aud...willfully...etc... Words they don't want to hear and don't want to read. Staying AHEAD of it...means controlling the narrative....and shame on them for not knowing this.

My comments are in Red

[Aslan]

Scotty...you're missing the point.

That "exchange" was not a public statement nor position. For all we know, it may not have even happened. The PBA needs to make a "statement".

Second, that "exchange", completely misses the mark in my opinion. It comes off as the PBA essentially saying EXACTLY what I would warn them not to say...essentially:

"...yeah....it's a USBC testing thing....it's no big deal...the athletes probably didn't know...and we love Motiv because they pay their dues on time." In other words, "Nothing to see here...pay no attention to the man behind the curtain."

Shame on the PBA. And shame on "Motivators" who are too caught up in their brand loyalty to ask a company and an organization to step up. No, Jackal owners should not ever...ever be able to throw those balls in sanctioned USBC play....ever. And Motiv should come out and either admit they knew, or give a statement under penalty of purgury...that they did not know, their atheletes did not know, and the problem leading to the incident has been corrected." Nothing less is acceptable from them....no matter how much they pay the PBA or how many motivators whine.

Step up PBA. Do your little rubber stamp investigation...release your findings...and ensure the public that you at LEAST care. No interview statements or heresay...put your big boy pants on and do your job. If Motiv threatens to quit the PBA...tell them good luck with that...they can join the ranks of Lane Masters and Seismic and Lane #1 and Pyramid....all brands that roughly 250 people have heard of. 900Global left for one year and came back with their tail between their legs....realizing rather quickly that the few people willing to buy 900Global before they left...shrinks to virtually nobody once you're not PBA relevant anymore.

Both organizations can silence the doubters...and make this all go away...by just stepping up and either admitting they knew and apologizing (Motiv) or making a clear statement they didn't know....AND the issue has been resolved. I'm not asking the PBA to do anything that any other pro sports organization would do minimally. Even women's basketball would come out with some type of statement and do some minimal investigation. Shame on the PBA.

And there's no article or set of data on "differential" that changes any of this...at ALL. There's a standard....it wasn't met. It doesn't how stupid or outdated the standard is. If it's ridiculous...remove it. If it's not...it applies. That part of the argument is so simple that the USBC HAD to do what they did....even though I'm pretty sure they didn't want to. I'm sick of hearing how steroids don't help a batter hit a ball. There are rules, follow them. It's pretty simple.

[Amyers]

I guess the bigger issue is why aren't balls checked prior to tournaments. I understand you can't do it for all tournaments but surely for the Majors you should check ALL balls prior.

Everyone seems to have been asleep at the wheel.

The problem with this is not everyone who wins a PBA title is treated like Belmo or Rash. The small guys who occasionally work their way up onto the tour often aren't even sponsored they don't have a drill truck and aren't throwing all brand new equipment. They are throwing equipment that's already drilled you can't test the differential after the ball is drilled up. So unless your going to make every competitor only use freshly drilled balls for every tournament on the tour it's a no go. This would make players who bowl mainly because they love the game not for the few measly dollars on the tour even farther in the hole.

[Aslan]

I already proposed how they could check.

Maximum diff = 0.060.

Most radical drilling layout increases diff to 0.080 (hypothetical).

Post drilling diff. must be < 0.080 (hypothetical).

Problem solved. Every ball used goes through the test and there are penalties for violations. I guarantee it solves the problem. Bowlers can easily and cheaply test their equipment pre-tournament...the big ball manufacturers will do it in their vans and booths for their athletes almost ensuring a 100% pass rate.

[scottymoney]

Nevermind then......... I gave you exactly what the PBA had to say about it. Not sure what else you would like to hear. That is what Clark said, so that is what the PBA had to say. They basically follow the USBC as far as those regulations are concerned so why should they waste time in investigating it themselves.

[vdubtx]