Guns for nuts

[fordman1]

Jesse they had an off duty police officer working security at the club that night and he exchanged gun fire with the killer.

Would more guns did any good in Chicago last week? 50 people shot there also over the weekend.

Guns have been in the hands of citizens for over 240 years. They were and always will be just a tool. The hand ( or in most cases the heart) of the person using the tool either makes it useful or destructive. The problem with gun laws are they are designed to control those who live out side of the law which is a nearly impossible task. In my opinion you want to fix the problems look to training and arming as many people as possible. the Mass killing just down the road from me in Orlando could have been entirely different had there not been a law in place saying guns where not allowed in a place that's main business is selling booze. just one person with a CCW permit could have ended the shooting and saved many. It's not the tool but the heart of man that creates the problem. Let's face it the ONLY way to stop a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun. Do we really want to take that protection away??

[Briantime]

Jesse they had an off duty police officer working security at the club that night and he exchanged gun fire with the killer.

Would more guns did any good in Chicago last week? 50 people shot there also over the weekend.

Why do you insist on holding an inanimate object as responsible for a crime?

Oh, sorry, I forgot. These shootings are being perpetrated by out of work youths who have no choice but to run wild in the streets...

[Jessiewoodard57]

What I said is logical. Some people will never agree with it. If it ever comes down to where I am facing an intruder with a gun I don't want to wait for someone to come and bury me. I want them burying the intruder. If you ever face that day you will be praying the police get there quick (provided you had time to call them) . The FIRST line of defense is always you. I find it fascinating that people always point to Chicago and NY City about murders the both do not allow hand guns. If they did many of those killed would not be the victim but the intruder. when home invasion has the possibility that you will be killed its less likely you will even try. ...as I said there will be those that thing it hogwash.

[Aslan]

Again, well said. There is a slippery slope to taking away people's rights just because it makes you feel better. You may feel that others shouldn't have a certain right because it makes you feel less safe. But how do you feel when they come after one of your cherished rights? Don't say it can't happen, because it does.

I'll use an extreme example just to further the point: Child molesters.

Just typing it, makes people uncomfortable....makes people mad. There is NO group...anywhere...even ISIS...that is AS HATED as child harming deviants.

So, what rights should they have? Because I've heard many, many people say that "those people" shouldn't have rights. They shouldn't be able to ever get out of prison...regardless of their sentence. They shouldn't be allowed to move into housing that is anywhere near a kid...so, they need to live in some cave somewhere. They have to go door to door where they do move and risk their own safety by telling their neighbors their crime. If they are beaten or killed...in jail or out...we pretty much look the other way and claim they probably had it coming.

The irony is, we had the same opinion of women, blacks, and gays...as recently as 20 years ago. It's very easy to take away people's rights. And most of the time, some event or crime or catastrophe is used as the reasoning and it seems like a perfectly good idea. Until it's not. Permiscuous women used to be sent to insane asylums. Gays were treated like animals. Blacks...well, yeah...they had less rights than pets 150 years ago. And AT THE TIME...most people didn't have a problem with it. Because it's easy. It's easy to just marginalize society's outliers...and claim they aren't human. It makes us sleep better at night knowing that we're human and "those people" aren't.

But, as Timmy said...be careful when taking away rights...eventually it comes back to haunt us. Pretty soon you're drunk after leagues one night, meet a gal who claims to be 19, and the cops show up while she is in your car and you are taking a leak in a bush...and suddenly you went from "a person with rights" to a registered sex offender guilty of one count of public indecency, one count of exposing yourself to a minor, and one count of devious acts in the presence of a minor. Turns out she lied...she was 16. Ooops. Oh well...yesterday you were a human being...today you are a sociopath. Bad break I guess.

And NO...I'm not telling a personal story. As far as I know...I'm not on any lists. And 16-19 year olds generally find me repulsive...so it's a non-issue. I'm just saying...be careful what rights you want to give away....society has a tendency to change it's mind about behaviors over time.

[fordman1]

So does that mean that anyone who wants to can buy a gun? No restrictions no age limit, no ID. Just walk in lay down the money and walk out with a semi automatic and 1,000 rounds? Somehow I don't feel safer.
This started when I read a survey that said 21% of the people surveyed said mentally ill people should have the right to buy guns.

[Aslan]

This started when I read a survey that said 21% of the people surveyed said mentally ill people should have the right to buy guns.

Have you ever read the "restrictions" in Michigan's CCW law? I used to have a CCW in Michigan. You should read the 2 pages of restrictions. By the time you get done reading it, you'll be amazed that anyone can actually carry a gun legally.

The problem with the mental health side of the argument, is defining "mentally Ill"? Are Gays and Lesbians "mentally ill"? The overwhelming answer 60 years ago, even in the psychiatric world...was "yes". Nowadays...the mere question will get me uninvited to most social functions outside of Texas.

That means, people have to sit down and look at each of the 10s of thousands of diagnosis...potential diagnosis...and figure out which ones "present" with a violent or suicidal track...then try to determine how mild/severe the diagnosis would have to be to take away the person's rights to own a firearm.

The reason that will never happen in our lifetime...is RIGHT NOW...in most states...if you have a guy you know, that is ODD....WEIRD...depressed...SAD....a LONER...has made random threats....talks to invisible people...and is generally a psycho....you would have trouble getting that person committed. The country has shifted the burden of proof to the doctors to PROVE beyond a reasonable doubt that a person is crazy. Most of the time, they simply can't PROVE it...and those people are let loose onto the streets and become drugged out homeless people that eventually die of disease or some type of violence. And when these people act crazy, we all say, "Why aren't they locked up? They're NUTS!"

Yup. They are. But what about the suicidal? Are they "too depressed" to own a gun? What if they are treated and taking Prozac and feeling perfectly fine? Do they get that right back? What if it's not a gun? What if it's a car? Should crazy people be allowed to drive? I'm more scared of a crazy person plowing into a crowd of people than I am a crazy person going on a shooting spree.

It's a very, very complicated mess. And the path towards fixing it is to have some experts really look at the mentally ill in this country and how we can clean up the mess. Instead...liberals claim we can cure all death by making it harder to legally buy a gun....because that worked SO well with alcohol and drugs. And Conservatives refuse to even admit a person doesn't need a rocket launcher...because as soon as they give an inch...some Bernie Sanders nut will use that as a slippery slope to gather up everyone's hunting rifles and handguns...and give them to the black community...so they can seek "reparations".

[fordman1]

Were you living when the republicans closed all of the mental facilities and they ended up on the streets? Now you have to carry a gun to walk under a bridge.

[Timmyb]

Okay, stop. No one here is going to convince this small man (and I do NOT mean stature) that he is anything less than the moral authority on this. Liberals like him are the reason for conservatives like me. You try to change the word to be more like your far-flung utopia, and you can't see the damn forest for the trees. You only end up creating more like me. I'm out on this one. I know a lost cause when I see it. And you, fordman1, are waaaaaay lost on this subject.

[Briantime]

Were you living when the republicans closed all of the mental facilities and they ended up on the streets? Now you have to carry a gun to walk under a bridge.

Actually, per the National Crime Victimization Survey, the rate of violent crime has dropped 67% since 1993 but please don't let facts dissuade you from your viewpoint.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/17/up...rime.html?_r=0

[fordman1]

Okay, stop. No one here is going to convince this small man (and I do NOT mean stature) that he is anything less than the moral authority on this. Liberals like him are the reason for conservatives like me. You try to change the word to be more like your far-flung utopia, and you can't see the damn forest for the trees. You only end up creating more like me. I'm out on this one. I know a lost cause when I see it. And you, fordman1, are waaaaaay lost on this subject.

Have you watched the news lately?