What's next?

[Amyers]

What about when bowlers give out their layout such as 45x2x20 (random numbers). Are these all layouts in relation to PAP also. So telling someone else to use a specific layout means nothing since it is a based off each own's unique PAP

The 45x2x20 you gave as an example is called a Dual Angle layout and yes they describe the drilling much better than simple Pin up or pin down. The dual angle system describes the Drilling Angle, Pin to Positive Axis Point (Pin-to-PAP) distance, and the Vertical Axis Line (VAL) angle. So you have a transferable description of the layout. Pin up or down really is antiquated by modern standards.

[Mike White]

What about when bowlers give out their layout such as 45x2x20 (random numbers). Are these all layouts in relation to PAP also. So telling someone else to use a specific layout means nothing since it is a based off each own's unique PAP

The problem with two bowlers using the same layout, and expecting the same result, isn't because their PAPs are different, the layout compensates for that.

The problem is the two bowlers release the ball with different speeds, axis tilt, axis rotation, and rev rate.

To achieve the same ball reaction (if it's even possible) each bowler would their own layout specific to all of their release parameters as well as surface prep.

[Mike White]

The placement of the pin is irrelevant unless you know your PAP.

Is your comment something that you learned from USBC coaching material, or did you get this from your personal "research?"

If I (for one bowler) take 2 identical balls and drill one with the pin 1" to the right of the ring finger, and the other with the pin 1" above the bridge, and I have no idea where his pap is, other than he bowls normal unlike 2handedtwerp, those two balls with result in different ball reactions.

What causes that? The differing locations of their pins.

Therefore even if you don't know where your PAP is, the location of the pin is relevant.

If later on we locate the bowlers PAP, would the location of the pin (in your theory), somehow magically become relevant?

[bowl1820]

What about when bowlers give out their layout such as 45x2x20 (random numbers). Are these all layouts in relation to PAP also. So telling someone else to use a specific layout means nothing since it is a based off each own's unique PAP

Yes layouts are based on your PAP, two people could both have the same layout like 45x2x20.

But because their PAPs are in different locations the ball won't look like they are drilled the same because the layout is measured to and from your PAP.

Just seeing where the pin is in relation to the holes doesn't really tell you much unless you know where that persons PAP is.


Look at it this way.

If "you" have a ball drilled based on "your PAP" with the 45x2x20 layout and I picked it up and used it.

That layout would become something different for me, because "my PAP" is in a different location than yours.

Like if I marked my PAP location on that ball, it might say something like 55x4x10 or 30x1x20 (made up #'s)

So for me to have that specific layout on a ball I'd have to know where my pap is and measure to it.

I can't just put the pin in the same place near the holes that your ball has it if I want or need the same layout.

[JaxBowlingGuy]

Is your comment something that you learned from USBC coaching material, or did you get this from your personal "research?"

If I (for one bowler) take 2 identical balls and drill one with the pin 1" to the right of the ring finger, and the other with the pin 1" above the bridge, and I have no idea where his pap is, other than he bowls normal unlike 2handedtwerp, those two balls with result in different ball reactions.

What causes that? The differing locations of their pins.

Therefore even if you don't know where your PAP is, the location of the pin is relevant.

If later on we locate the bowlers PAP, would the location of the pin (in your theory), somehow magically become relevant?

I think you may have missed why he said that. The post he replied to asked where the pin was on the ball in question. Me telling you the pin is under the ring finger doesn't tell you if that's a 1" pin or a 5" pin (based on my pap) so to his reply was to say without knowing the pap just randomly saying the pin is "here" won't actually tell you what its influencing the ball to do.

[Mike White]

I think you may have missed why he said that. The post he replied to asked where the pin was on the ball in question. Me telling you the pin is under the ring finger doesn't tell you if that's a 1" pin or a 5" pin (based on my pap) so to his reply was to say without knowing the pap just randomly saying the pin is "here" won't actually tell you what its influencing the ball to do.

If for example I knew my pap, and discovered that my layout was 45x2x20, you still wouldn't be able to tell me what it's influencing the ball to do.

At best you could say compared to a 60x2x20, the ball will do more of X, compared to a 45x2x40 the ball will do more of Y, and compared to a 45x3x20, the ball will do more of Z.

Unless I have a ball drilled as what you are comparing to, that information doesn't help me at all.

I still have to go out and throw the ball to determine the net effect of the influence.

The same is true for a ball that I can see where the pin is, but no idea where the PAP is.

I have to go out and throw the ball.

The problem with Rob's comment is the word irrelevant.

Not knowing the distance to the pin is not the same thing as saying for all possible distances, the layout will have the same influence.

Not knowing is not the same thing as irrelevant.