When to switch balls?

[chip82901]

Never move right on a THS? I've moved right MANY times on a THS. I've started with a Phaze II 25 out to 7, lost that look as it was jumping early, switched to a Street Fight and moved 4 right with my mark and kept the same break point. I've even made the switch the urethane and moved WAY right. I've also gone a whole night throwing a pitch blue and moved right to get it outside of the carry down. So this never move right mentality you mention can be confusing for some, as sometimes, the right move IS to go right

[1VegasBowler]

I agree with RobLV1 and Tampabaybob, and I have said some of what they said in other threads.

One of the things about a lot of typical bowlers, is, they start at the same spot all night and never change, and then they wonder why their games are getting worse instead of better.

Darn good bowlers learn how to be versatile by knowing how to move left or right and knowing where everybody else is playing.

The THS is great to start at the 10, but because so many people play that line, it's broken down before the first game is over. And whether it's being stubborn or not being able to make left/right adjustments, people tend to stay in the same line and can't figure out what has gone wrong.

Far too many people practice to see what their scores are, when they should be working on moving left/right or their spares. Being able to open up the lanes for yourself is what separates the OK bowler to the darn good ones.

Just from my own observations here in Vegas, there are very few people that I have bowled with or against that can play different lines and I use that to my advantage.

During the 10 min of practice I like to start at the 10 and then see where everybody else is playing, and it's usually the same place! But, when the games start I'll go 15 to 10 to stay in the oil longer and can pretty much stay there all night. Why? Because too any bowlers are afraid of being in the oil!

And if I have to, I'll go straight up the 15! This pretty much allows me to stay with my heavy oil equipment (Ultimate Nirvana & Vandal Smash) until it''s time to drop to my BTU.

OR, I can use less aggressive balls for medium oil and play anywhere from the 15 to the 5.

If you can't diversify your game and you're not able to handle the transition, then your game is one dimensional. Being versatile will improve your game dramatically.

[RobLV1]

Never move right on a THS? I've moved right MANY times on a THS. I've started with a Phaze II 25 out to 7, lost that look as it was jumping early, switched to a Street Fight and moved 4 right with my mark and kept the same break point. I've even made the switch the urethane and moved WAY right. I've also gone a whole night throwing a pitch blue and moved right to get it outside of the carry down. So this never move right mentality you mention can be confusing for some, as sometimes, the right move IS to go right

A great majority of house league bowlers play the second arrow. The THS is generally walled from ten to ten. If you start at ten, all the oil is to your left. As the track dries up and players begin to move in, the oil is still to your left. Why would you move from oil into dry? By the way, carry down is not a factor in the modern game unless you are bowling against someone throwing plastic or urethane for their strike shot. Oh, wait a minute... that would be you!

[mc_runner]

What would the right move be when you're starting in between the strokers and the crankers (say there are 3 of each, as will be the case for me tomorrow) all hitting the same break point down lane? When my line transitions, and I move inside, I hit the area already carved out/chewed up by the crankers. I then fish around for a few frames where I change further inside, decide to change a ball, try to finesse a line, etc - and end up with a lousy second game until I figure out what the lanes are telling me, somewhere in the middle of game 2. Then that line's usually dead by game 3 but I have a good read on what to do... Frequently for me that seems to mean balling down and using a ball that reads the lane later, usually a few boards left of my initial starting spot in game 1.

Not disagreeing btw, definitely looking for advice as I tend to struggle right around that transition time. I'm not sure if it means expanding to another ball (my haywire is at the end of it's life and even after surfacing and cleaning regularly with a couple extractions it's not reading the way it did new), something more aggressive or simply new... or something else? I've really tried to read what the lanes have been telling me but when you are the only tweener/power tweener on the pair between two other types, I struggle with the "right" change.

[Aslan]

As to the OP, my only advice (in addition to RobM's description of moving laterally in his first reply), is that I'd change the progression you're using. Start with the Grudge Hybrid...when you start hitting light (presumably because the ball is rolling out), then switch to the weaker Fanatic. When that ball starts hitting light...then you move in a little with the stronger, more skid/flip Grudge Pearl.

In order to figure out what progression to use, you have to ask yourself, "what makes a ball skid/flip?" What makes a ball react in a more angular fashion? Which specs do you think are most influential? Even though Brunswick calls the Fanatic a "skid/flip" ball...it is far less so (per it's specifications) than the Grudge Pearl. BUT...ultimately it depends on how much value you place in "carrydown". MOST professionals agree on two things concerning carrydown:

1) It still exists (RobM disagrees as do some other pros).
2) It's far less of an issue than it used to be...to the extent that in some cases it's virtually negligible.

If you think 'carrydown' is a myth...I'd keep the progression the same. If you think carrydown is a factor, I'd switch the Fanatic and Grudge Pearl in your current order of progression.

also, i just have to add.... listen to your gut too LOL

Your gut is useless if you're not current a Regional PBA pro or higher. My gut always tells me that I should just take the lanes out of the equation by hurling the ball 60ft and landing it on the head-pin. If I listen to my "gut", I would be a very inconsistent 140s average bowler.

There is never any reason to move right (for a right hander) when bowling on a typical house shot.
Good Luck!

Most of RobM's initial post...I 1000% agree with. You move laterally based on what you leave and where the ball exits the pin deck. I will, as I consistently have, only disagree with his comment that you "never" move right...(although in fairness...he is probably in the majority in terms of pros that see moving right as 'almost never' a good option). Remember RobM, "only the Sith deal in absolutes."

Unfortunately, bowlers are usually very stubborn, and we're all included in that statement. Many times after bowling I've driven home mad at myself for not changing balls earlier. We are creatures of comfort, where our bowling balls are concerned, and we all love that favorite first out-of-the-bag-ball. We all literally say to ourselves, "I can make this ball work", then realize 3-5 frames later, we goofed.

Although...I've also been accused of "switching too early." I've also noticed that the less I move/change/adjust...the better my scores end up being.
Realize, I am NOT disagreeing...also many nights I've seen a terrible game in my series....because I just refused to switch balls. OR, many, many nights where I kinda know I need to switch on one lane...but I want to avoid using two different strike balls...so I wait longer than I should. BUT...that cuts both ways. Too early, too late...even the pros make that mistake. To truly master ball changes...you have to SEE the ball move. You have to be able to EXECUTE your shot, WATCH your shot, FOLLOW your shot through the pins, and NOTICE it exit the deck. That SOUNDS...really easy. It is NOT. ESPECIALY...seeing the ball transition from skid to hook...which is crucial.

Along the same lines, I am conflicted lately about which ball to start with. It seems like there are a few different schools of thought. On one hand the suggestion is to begin with a lower RG ball with a smooth controlled reaction and eventually switch (if needed) to a higher RG more angular ball as the lanes open up. On the other hand the suggestion seems to be to begin with less aggressive equipment and move to a more aggressive ball if needed to get the ball back to the pocket while moving left.

Again, the strategy you choose to employ, will depend on whether you believe carrydown is a factor. BUT...the 'common wisdom' or "contemporary wisdom" is that you start with your strongest ball (in terms of surface and how SOON it will hook) and work towards weaker balls that hook later. How you choose that arsenal in terms of weighting surface, cover, manufacturer, RG, overall hook, etc... will be up to you.

The problem with moving left and using stronger equipment...at least in my case....is you'll far exceed your comfort zone...rather quickly on most THSs. You'll end up trying to play a certain angle where you just don't have a shot. 2-handers run into this problem ALL THE TIME. It is not uncommon to see them lofting the gutters by games 2 and 3. Their blessing (power, angle, etc...) is also their curse, as they can't really "tone it down" as much as a standard delivery would allow. The problem with spending too much time "outside your comfort zone" is you'll likely average in the 160s...maybe someday the 180s. You'll be the most versatile player in your league...but not nearly the highest scorer. People "outside their comfort zones" don't shoot honor scores...because they are essentially swimming against the current. Great exercise!...not the greatest strategy in terms of avoiding drowning.

In addition to ROBLV1's comment, you can move forward and back.

ChuckR makes a great point...and Suzie Minshew wrote a good article on this as well. I also agree with others that physically moving where your start your approach...can screw up your timing. BUT....as one of my favorite PBA bowlers of all time (MIKA!) knows well...moving your TARGET vertically can be just as valuable as moving laterally. If I'm 'stuck' in my lateral moves...and I can't seem to find a good line/ball combination...AND/OR I'm seeing an unexpected reaction (hooking too soon or too late); I will actually start moving my target (usually OUT, sometimes IN) vertically. Actual starting position movements I reserve as a "last resort" since it can mess with my approach, timing, and other physical factors. The key to moving your target vertically, is not "grab" or "drop" the ball.

In determining which ball to start with, you need to consider the other bowlers on the pair and formulate a strategy for the session. It's the strategy that determines what ball you should start with. For example, if you are bowling with a group of blackjack bowlers (stand on 20, hit 10), then you might decide to start with a ball that's a little more aggressive and play to the left of the others. On another occasion, you may find that others are playing to the left of the track area, so you might decide to start with a less aggressive ball and play right of the others for as long as you can. Many bowlers make the mistake of deciding what ball they are going to use before they even get to the bowling center... bad idea!

I'm with the great majority of coaches on this: moving up or back on the approach for any reason is a bad idea for the simple reason that it messes with your timing.

...TO BE CONTINUED...

[Aslan]

...PART II due 10,000 word limit....thanks a lot stupid spammers...

+1 on what ROB said.....

deciding a ball before even seeing who you are bowling with, or not testing the waters, is a bad idea.

I have three (first ball) balls that I bring and all of them are my "bench mark" ball because I don't know which I will start out with. Some days it's my urethane, some days it's my solid, or some days it's my pearl. My spare ball has core and if need be, I can use it as my first ball too...Anyway, if there are more guys playing up the boards, then I'll look to see if I can be inside. If guys are on the track, I'll look to see if I can play outside, or deeper. it just depends who I'm bowling with (know them after years of bowling the same ppl) and what's on the ball rack.

Forkai....I don't think you've grasped the concept of "benchmark". A "Benchmark Ball"...well...I could go into this in a LOT more detail...but, not every ball can BE your benchmark ball....otherwise...it's, the opposite of a benchmark ball.

You hit the nail on the head here. Most people, when practice starts, never pay attention to who they are bowling with/against, and where everybody is shooting. They also don't watch those that they follow to see if the lane has transitioned before they svn get up to bowl, so they can make a move right away. I explain this to my students to keep an eye on those that are bowling before you, especially if they're shooting a similar line. In other words, if you're bowling 3rd, and the first two bowlers are shooting a similar line as you, and the both hit their target and the ball jumps and elves a split...... MOVE. Don't get up and throw the same line as they did, move in and get away from the burned area.

Okay, ONE...you have NO TIME to warm-up, get your balance/form right, get a good feel for the approach, ensure good ball fit, judge lanes, pattern, arsenal, opponents, opponents arsenals, opponents styles/preferences, etc...;in 15 minutes when there are 3-10 bowlers taking practice shots. I'll get in 2-8 shots depending on how many other players are actually warming up and how often the equipment breaks down.

TWO, at a HIGH level....yes. At the level of 98% of us...you're way, way over-thinking things. AND...before I get yelled at...

...I was TOLD...this...by folks on this very site...when I was spending far too much time worried about "messing up my line in practice" or "throwing a surfaced ball to mess with my opponents line", or "throwing a surfaced ball right of my intended line to get some additional bounce/miss room", etc...

THREE, and this is more just a personal/mental-game type of thing...but that's YOUR line. It's not THEIR line. It's YOUR line. You have just as much right to it as your opponents do. If I am bowling against two highly skilled (180+ average) bowlers....and all three of us are throwing up the track...which is our preferred game and the one that has allowed us to get to the 180 (170ish in my case) level...then the real question becomes, "If you are forced to play your "B-Game"...are you better, the same, or worse than your opponents when they play their "B-Game"? You now have 3 good bowlers bowling in the 150s because they all abandoned their "A-Game" to try and outthink their opponents.

That's why, I employ a slightly different strategy. My line...is MY line. I can move if I need to...I can change balls if I need to...I can make slight changes to my vertical, visual targeting without too horrible a result (messes with my release a little). Rather than go to my SIGNIFICANTLY WORSE B-GAME...I just protect my line...as long as I can...and make my spares. Usually, the first guy (at my level...NOT at the PBA level...probably opposite at the PBA level) to abandon the line...loses. He/she ends up well inside of the track...and they have to be super-precise to make their shot work....and they end up "trying too hard" to get the ball back to the pocket. Unfortunately, the LAST guy to abandon the line...is left with terrible Game 3 carry issues that require spare shooting perfection.

If you're on "MY line"...move. Thats MY line.

Why would you move from oil into dry? By the way, carry down is not a factor in the modern game unless you are bowling against someone throwing plastic or urethane for their strike shot. Oh, wait a minute... that would be you!

For ME....I try to avoid any movement right...for all the reasons RobM listed.
The exceptions are:
1) If you aren't carrying...and you have no other arsenal options (you are at the last ball in the progression)...yet are carrying fine on the other lane...I may make small moves (0.5/0.5, 1:1, or 2:1) right...just to try and get some additional bite. I try to ONLY DO THIS...if I feel I've moved too far inside...and that ball is skidding too much (versus burning up). If I think it's a "burning up" issue...I don't move right (because that just makes it worse)...and I will often try to make some slight vertical adjustments at that point.

2) If the track is burnt and the inside line either isn't there or doesn't match your game/equipment...you could play up the 5ish board with older, 70s/80s, urethane equipment...not my "Option #1"...but it beats leaving 1-2-4-10s as my resin ball skids right of the pocket...and it beats picking up a 9lb house ball and throwing thumbless.

[chip82901]

while yes, a great deal of league bowlers do play down the 10 board, you also have to determine just what shot is out there, what equipment you are throwing, etc. As I stated before, I can grab something with surface such as my phaze 2, move left, but eventually, i'm going to lose the angle and not carry. Hence why I would grab something less aggressive and move right, using the same break point. If I was using my phaze 2 for instance playing 25-7, and it started jumping in the mid lane, I'm obviously not going to just move left and throw the same ball as it is still going to jump in the mid lane. I'm going to grab something not so aggressive, move right of the jump spot in the midlane, and still create the same angle off the same break point

[RobLV1]

It never fails... talk about carry down, and the hackles rise. For anyone who still thinks that carry down is a factor in modern bowling, I would invite you to reference Gold Coach Joe Slowinski's article in the October 2008 issue of Bowling This Month entitled The Myth of Carry Down. In it, you can see the actual tape results of tests done to measure carry down. The bottom line is that the little bit of oil that was found past the end of the pattern was less than two units... far less than is required to have any effect on modern reactive covers.

[Aslan]

It never fails... talk about carry down, and the hackles rise. For anyone who still thinks that carry down is a factor in modern bowling, I would invite you to reference Gold Coach Joe Slowinski's article in the October 2008 issue of Bowling This Month entitled The Myth of Carry Down. In it, you can see the actual tape results of tests done to measure carry down. The bottom line is that the little bit of oil that was found past the end of the pattern was less than two units... far less than is required to have any effect on modern reactive covers.

But, I'm not a huge fan of Joe Slowinski. Is there another source?

And, in my "hackling" (whatever that is)...I DID point out that some (including you) do share the view that carrydown isn't a factor in the modern game. So, you're not alone...Mr. Slowinski agrees...as do others. It's an "active theory" in the modern game that needs more research.

Before I even consider looking at Mr. Slowinski's research...I would have to insist that said research was carried out during a typical league bowling set of conditions. Does carrydown exist for 5 pro bowlers bowling a 5-game single elimination finals? Probably not. Does it exist in a 5-person mixed league where 40% are throwing plastic as their strike ball or old equipment saturated with oil...AND with bowlers that are essentially throwing shots everywhere? I'd say almost certainly yes.

Again, when I talk about "carrydown"...I am not only admitting that it 'could' be a non-factor...but am also pointing out that carrydown CAN exist, and likely DOES exist for 93% of house bowlers today.

[bowl1820]

I would invite you to reference Gold Coach Joe Slowinski's article in the October 2008 issue of Bowling This Month entitled The Myth of Carry Down.

There should be a caveat about that article.

The data he collected was not from typical house & league conditions. He did it at a camp on fresh lanes, using fresh patterns, players using similar equipment and playing the lanes in similar fashion.

That is not your typical league situation.

He says right at the start of the article about carrydown "Unless you come to a bowling center after hours of open play or a birthday party, your change of ball motion is not a result of carrydown."

"after hours of open play or a birthday party", lanes with maybe just a head shot or a fresh pattern but not cleaned as well as they could be and league bowlers playing multiple lines and using various ball types (plastic, urethane,resin) that is more of a typical league situation.

That situation could produce carrydown and at highers levels. Would it be enough to be a factor in reaction? Unless there is more data provided we don't know.

But it could be enough to be a problem for lesser players, especially coupled with the depletion that is happening.

The thing with carrydown is, you have to look at who your bowling, what they are using and what the conditions are at the start. Then decide if it's carrydown, depletion or a combination of the two that is responsible for your change in ball motion.