What IS a "skid/flip" ball?

[Aslan]

From eHow:
Skidding
A ball is said to be skidding if it doesn't roll down the lane but rather slides.

Flipping
If the ball flips from one side to the other while heading toward the pins, the ball is flipping.

Skid/Flip
If the ball slides down the lane and rolls from one side to the other when done sliding, the ball is performing a skid/flip.

The higher the radius of gyration (RG) of the ball, the more likely it will skid/flip, because it is a higher differential ball. When a ball uses less energy in the front of the lane and more power in the back end, you could cause skid/flip. If you drill the ball to cause flare, you can also cause skid/flip, although this is the least likely of the causes related to the ball.

From Bowlingball.com (for entire article):
Highlights:
Usually, a long skid pattern is developed by using a ball with a stiff or pearl coverstock manufactured with a shiny, 1500 or 2000 grit finish...Any ball with an aggressive coverstock, a pliable surface and with a low grit, dull factory finish designed to react quickly in heavy oil conditions will not skid nearly as far as will one with a stiff coverstock and a shiny factory finish.

A bowling ball with a high RG (radius of gyration) is one which skids a long distance before developing a strong roll pattern and conserves energy until the ball travels to the back end of the lane before hooking at the break point.

Choosing a ball with a high Differential of RG (commonly referred to as "differential") will enable the ball to hook sharply from the break point to the pocket and is often described as a ball with a high hook potential rating by a manufacturer.

The combination of a high RG ball coupled with high differential ratings and with a stiff or pearl coverstock will yield the "skid-flip" ball motion you seek. Also, using a drill pattern to create a long skid and sharp hook ball motion will augment the coverstock and core design properties and help you get the ball reaction you seek.

(more in next post)

[Aslan]

So, according to these two sites....the IDEAL SKID/FLIP ball will have:

Storm: Snap Lock
1) A polished, Pearl coverstock. (check)
2) An aggressive coverstock. (check)
3) A high RG. (2.48)
4) A high differential. (0.054)
5) A high manufacturer hook rating/potential. (232.8)

Rotogrip: No Rules Pearl
1) A polished, Pearl coverstock. (check)
2) An aggressive coverstock. (check)
3) A high RG. (2.51) (push)
4) A high differential. (0.053)
5) A high manufacturer hook rating/potential. (229.8)

Radical: Xeno
1) A polished, Pearl coverstock. (check)
2) An aggressive coverstock. (check)
3) A high RG. (2.508) (push)
4) A high differential. (0.048)
5) A high manufacturer hook rating/potential. (185.6)

DV8: Grudge Pearl
1) A polished, Pearl coverstock. (check)
2) An aggressive coverstock. (check)
3) A high RG. (2.49)
4) A high differential. (0.056)
5) A high manufacturer hook rating/potential. (231.5)

Brunswick: Mastermind Brainiac
1) A polished, Pearl coverstock. (check)
2) An aggressive coverstock. (check)
3) A high RG. (2.504) (push)
4) A high differential. (0.048)
5) A high manufacturer hook rating/potential. (228.90)

Hammer: Scandal Pearl
1) A polished, Pearl coverstock. (check)
2) An aggressive coverstock. (check)
3) A high RG. (2.48)
4) A high differential. (0.054)
5) A high manufacturer hook rating/potential. (231.90)

Motiv: Primal Rage Remix
1) A polished, Pearl coverstock. (hybrid) (push)
2) An aggressive coverstock. (check)
3) A high RG. (2.55)
4) A high differential. (0.050) (push)
5) A high manufacturer hook rating/potential. (219.6)

First;
I didn't include Columbia300, Track, Ebonite, nor 900Global because I didn't see any of their modern releases that looked to be "skid/flip". Brunswick I had to use a "sort of new/old" bowling ball from the Mastermind series.

Second;
I included Motiv despite my personal objections to their company's ethical discrepancies.

Third;
I used Perfectscale to measure "hook rating/potential" because it's at LEAST a standardardized, quantifiable method that is freely available.

(more in the next post)

[Aslan]

So...to apply this to a conversation Amyers and I were having in my scores thread:

This is one of those spots you and I always have a communications break down. Neither the scandal or the Thug Life are "ideal" skid/flip balls the Thug Life is much closer than the Scandal Pearl to being that. The Scandal Pearl is a very strong pearl designed to read the midlane skid/flip balls ignore the midlane and make a left turn upon exiting the pattern. The Thug Life is much closer to skid flip but really hits more of a tweener role the rg is a little low, the cover a little strong, and a little more surface than you'll see on a true skid flip ball.

Skid/flip balls usually follow a common thread, Polished finish, High RG 2.52+, and strong but not to strong of cover. (There are exceptions to every rule) Think High Road Pearl, 900 Global Respect, and Radical Ridiculous Pearl. Watch a few videos of those balls and where they start to read the lane then watch a video of the Scandal Pearl where it reads the lane you'll see the difference in about 10 seconds.

The reason the Thug Life is a step down from the Scandal Pearl is simply the Thug Life has a higher RG and a weaker cover than the Scandal Pearl it's going to go longer.

I guess the "issue" with this is that most skid/flip balls out there...that are strong coverstocks, polished pearls, etc... Most of them do NOT have high RGs. Of matter of fact, many of the ones on this list have some of the lowest RGs on the market. Now, if you go over the balls with some of the higher RGs...none of them are strong cover skid/flip balls. I also would contend that while I didn't add the variables of core symmetry and drilling layouts...I think an assymetric core is vital to a skid/flip reaction. But, I stuck to the list from the two sources.

So, if we KNOW what an ideal "skid/flip" ball looks like from a specs point of view....why can't ball manufacturers make a ball that meets those ideal specifications? Would a ball like THIS (see below) be something that a ball manufacturer could produce??

1) Polished, Pearl
2) Strong Cover
3) RG = 2.55
4) Differential = 0.059 (0.069 for Motiv)
5) Perfectscale rating = 239.00

[bowl1820]

From eHow:
Skidding
A ball is said to be skidding if it doesn't roll down the lane but rather slides.

Flipping
If the ball flips from one side to the other while heading toward the pins, the ball is flipping.

Skid/Flip
If the ball slides down the lane and rolls from one side to the other when done sliding, the ball is performing a skid/flip.

OMG !


Note for everyone:

In regards to info about bowling found on eHow, Pretty much all of it should be ignored.

Most of the writers don't really seem to know what they are writing about. A big part of the ehow information on bowling seems like it's just been copied from old magazines/books, translated from english to another language back to english etc.


A short video showing a example "Skid / Flip Ball Motion" for those interested.

[RobLV1]

"Skid/Flip" refers to the shape of the ball reaction. You can't trace it to any one element (RG, Diff., etc.). A skid/flip reaction is the proverbial hockey stick shape. The other types of reactions are "hook/set," and smooth (arcing). While many factors contribute, the two major ones are the shape of the core (see the video bowl1820 posted on pin asymmetry), and how the core is positioned within the ball (layout).

[Aslan]

OMG !


Note for everyone:

In regards to info about bowling found on eHow, Pretty much all of it should be ignored.

Most of the writers don't really seem to know what they are writing about. A big part of the ehow information on bowling seems like it's just been copied from old magazines/books, translated from english to another language back to english etc.

In fairness, I also quoted "BowlVersity", which is the think tank for bowlingball.com/bowlingboards.com...and while eHow was certainly lacking...bowlversity drew similar conclusions.

[Aslan]

"Skid/Flip" refers to the shape of the ball reaction. You can't trace it to any one element (RG, Diff., etc.). A skid/flip reaction is the proverbial hockey stick shape. The other types of reactions are "hook/set," and smooth (arcing). While many factors contribute, the two major ones are the shape of the core (see the video bowl1820 posted on pin asymmetry), and how the core is positioned within the ball (layout).

I could agree with that.

However, again, from a "practical" standpoint...what can the average bowler do to select a "skid/flip" ball when the bulk of information seems to point to the specifications I listed as do many of the bowling ball manufacturers.

That's why I also posted my conversation with Amyers...because he made the statement that a skid/flip ball is a ball with a higher RG. Amyers wasn't making that up...it's standard information, even on bowlingball.com. BUT...most balls made by manufacturers....designed as "skid/flip" not only do NOT have RGs...but most of them have extremely low RGs.

For specification nerds like myself (and Chris Barnes)...it's rather confusing to try and nail down any one statement about any one specification...because the target is always moving. If I say, "I need a skid/flip ball." I get told "high RG." Then I buy a ball with a 2.56 RG...and it's the weakest ball on the market and absolutely not "skid/flip". Then I say it must be "polished/pearl"...but manufacturers make "skid/flip" balls with hybrid covers. I say it "must be high diff."...then you see manufacturers make skid/flip balls with a medium diff.

With this type of confusion and ball manufacturers unable or unwilling to really explain what specs mean...unilaterally...it leads many bowlers to believe that specs don't really matter. Every ball is the same...if you want it to do something different...you can change you approach, release, line, or surface. I don't think thats true. I still have "faith" that specs aren't just "voodoo". But I have to admit, the ball manufacturers are really failing to make a case that their "engineering marvels" are anything more than just silly marketing gimics. They make a core that looks like an "H" or a "T" or some kind of futuristic Star Trek device....and most bowlers go "Oooooo! That must be a real feat of engineering! Well worth my $260!"

[Amyers]

So, according to these two sites....the IDEAL SKID/FLIP ball will have:

Storm: Snap Lock
1) A polished, Pearl coverstock. (check)
2) An aggressive coverstock. (check)
3) A high RG. (2.48)
4) A high differential. (0.054)
5) A high manufacturer hook rating/potential. (232.8)

The Snap Lock is to low of an RG and has too strong of a cover to be overly Skid/flip Classification: Strong Pearl

Rotogrip: No Rules Pearl
1) A polished, Pearl coverstock. (check)
2) An aggressive coverstock. (check)
3) A high RG. (2.51) (push)
4) A high differential. (0.053)
5) A high manufacturer hook rating/potential. (229.8)

Longer than the Snap Lock but still to strong on the cover Classification:Strong Pearl

Radical: Xeno
1) A polished, Pearl coverstock. (check)
2) An aggressive coverstock. (check)
3) A high RG. (2.508) (push)
4) A high differential. (0.048)
5) A high manufacturer hook rating/potential. (185.6)

The Xeno is close but with Radical I'd go Ridiculous Pearl or Cyclops

DV8: Grudge Pearl
1) A polished, Pearl coverstock. (check)
2) An aggressive coverstock. (check)
3) A high RG. (2.49)
4) A high differential. (0.056)
5) A high manufacturer hook rating/potential. (231.5)

Again too low on the rg and too strong on the cover another strong pearl

Brunswick: Mastermind Brainiac
1) A polished, Pearl coverstock. (check)
2) An aggressive coverstock. (check)
3) A high RG. (2.504) (push)
4) A high differential. (0.048)
5) A high manufacturer hook rating/potential. (228.90)

Of the current Brunswick line this ball is the most skid Flip

Hammer: Scandal Pearl
1) A polished, Pearl coverstock. (check)
2) An aggressive coverstock. (check)
3) A high RG. (2.48)
4) A high differential. (0.054)
5) A high manufacturer hook rating/potential. (231.90)

Strong Pearl See Above

Motiv: Primal Rage Remix
1) A polished, Pearl coverstock. (hybrid) (push)
2) An aggressive coverstock. (check)
3) A high RG. (2.55)
4) A high differential. (0.050) (push)
5) A high manufacturer hook rating/potential. (219.6)

The Primal Rage set the standard for skid flip. Haven't seen this one yet but the numbers fit the bill

[Amyers]

This is one of these places there is no hardset numbers to look at and you've just got to watch the balls. There are also differences between bowlers that promote the balls looking somewhat different.

The Storm code black is pretty skid/flip doesn't meet a lot of your classifications

The Brunswick quantum even the green one doesn't have a polished surface at all. It's pretty skid flip in my book.

You can't just rely on numbers in bowling balls there are too many variables that aren't disclosed

[Aslan]

Well, I appreciate that Amyers responded. I realize it's kind of a "nerdy topic".

But again, what I'm hearing from Amyers (and from the lack of other explanations)...is that specifications...at the end of the day...mean nothing.

RobM has said there is no difference between solid, hybrid, pearl. He, and many others during the Motiv Jackal incident, have said differential doesn't really mean that much. I've spoke to staffers...and even they can't really talk too much about particular specifications. I doubt even the "experts" and ball designers/engineers could even have an intelligent conversation about what the specifications actually prove/result in.

I'd say > 85% of league bowlers....couldn't tell you ONE specification about the ball they are throwing. Not ONE. Not the RG....not the cover material...not even the surface. If bowlers don't know/care...most staffers don't understand the specs nor care...and 99% of the pros rely on their ball companies to tell them what to throw and when....I guess specifications are about as useful as a turd flavored lollipop.