League high average margin of 17 over the second place average.

[bowl1820]

Okay people lets not get carried away here.

[bowl1820]

I'm pretty sure that winning high season average by 17 pins over the nearest competitor is the most of any league I ever bowled in. There are quite a few good bowlers in the league and typically the high average in in the 230's ( there are 7 or 8 players over 230)

Does 17 seem like a much wider spread that is typical in most leagues ?

Pretty much mc_runner covered it with his reply, It's going to depend on the league and its makeup.

Example leagues:
A bowler who posts on another forum has high average on his league (This league wouldn't be considered highly competitive it's a little church league, Which only has 8- 4 player teams) with a 211 average. That ave. is 23 pins higher than the next highest bowler who only has a 188 average. The league overall average is 136 (154 just for the men).



On the league I bowl on, which is made up of 32 teams of 4 players with a 6 player roster (It is considered a moderately competitive league here) . We have 20 bowlers with a 200 and up average (6 with 220+ aves). The highest average is 242 (He's the PSO here and he's not a house hack.). The next highest ave. is 235 so only 7 pins difference. The league overall average is 170 (182 just for the men).

[Aslan]

I'm pretty sure that winning high season average by 17 pins over the nearest competitor is the most of any league I ever bowled in.

There are quite a few good bowlers in the league and typically the high average in in the 230's ( there are 7 or 8 players over 230)

Does 17 seem like a much wider spread that is typical in most leagues ?

Tony,
Lemme respond to your question a little differently, because I understand that you feel the responses were a bit "jaded". Maybe with this example/data; it'll help illustrate 'why' you got the response you did.

Below is some data on the leagues I've participated in over the past 4 years. I have only included medium-large leagues...where there were at least a handful of higher-average bowlers.

Purple = Wood Lanes (tends toward higher average for those that bowl there consistently)
Green = Easier House


K&Q (2013/2014):
# of bowlers: 50
High Average: 219
High Scratch Game: 289
High Scratch Series: 789
Bowlers > 200: 5
Difference between highest average and next highest (your question): 219-209 = 10 pins

KQ (2014):
# of bowlers: 60
High Average: 209
High Scratch Game: 278
High Scratch Series: 734
Bowlers > 200: 4
Difference between highest average and next highest (your question): 209-207 = 2 pins

54V (2015):
# of bowlers: 85
High Average: 230
High Scratch Game: 288
High Scratch Series: 787
Bowlers > 200: 9
Difference between highest average and next highest (your question): 230-227 = 3 pins

VoB (2015):
# of bowlers: 155
High Average: 211
High Scratch Game: 278
High Scratch Series: 754
Bowlers > 200: 4
Difference between highest average and next highest (your question): 211-202 = 9 pins

54V (15/16):
# of bowlers: 145
High Average: 228
High Scratch Game: 300 (x5)
High Scratch Series: 788
Bowlers > 200: 18
Difference between highest average and next highest (your question): 228-224 = 4 pins

TP (15/16):
# of bowlers: 87
High Average: 210
High Scratch Game: 289
High Scratch Series: 780
Bowlers > 200: 6
Difference between highest average and next highest (your question): 210-202 = 8 pins

PT (2016):
# of bowlers: 128
High Average: 216
High Scratch Game: 289
High Scratch Series: 748
Bowlers > 200: 7
Difference between highest average and next highest (your question): 216-212 = 4 pins

VP (2016):
# of bowlers: 116
High Average: 211
High Scratch Game: 300 (x1)
High Scratch Series: 773
Bowlers > 200: 6
Difference between highest average and next highest (your question): 211-207 = 4 pins

PT (16/17):
# of bowlers: 128
High Average: 210
High Scratch Game: 297
High Scratch Series: 767
Bowlers > 200: 3
Difference between highest average and next highest (your question): 210-202 = 8 pins

VoB (16/17):
# of bowlers: 160
High Average: 223
High Scratch Game: 300 (x2)
High Scratch Series: 758
Bowlers > 200: 8
Difference between highest average and next highest (your question): 223-215 = 8 pins

So, if you look at that data...from 3 different centers, over about 8 seasons...in the most competitive leagues in those centers:

1) Only ONCE...in a center that was far easier (in terms of conditions) than the other two centers...was there a bowler that averaged 230. That bowler...has never averaged over 209 at any other center...and all 4 of his perfect games have come AT that center.

2) While I've seen about 8 perfect games...5 of those occurred in the "easier" center...and only a few occurred at the other centers. Even in this day and age of modern equipment and blocked patterns...perfect games and 800 series are (or should be) rather rare....not a nightly event on multiple lanes.

3) In these leagues...LARGE leagues...there were generally 3-8 bowlers > 200 average. You mentioned 7-8 bowlers over 230! Even in the "easy" center...where we had 18 bowlers > 200...NOBODY averaged 230. A bowler that can average > 225 on a "non-easy"/average THS...SHOULD be testing themselves at AT LEAST the PBA Regional level...at LEAST. Professional, PBA bowlers tend to average > 225 on a THS.

4) To answer your question....Yes. A 17-pin margin is fairly 'high' given the data I've presented above. It's not 'extreme'...I mean, 8-10 is certainly possible. But "17"...thats really high. Usually, I'd only expect to see that if a high-level (college player, former professional, pro shop owner, former youth star, etc....) player joins a league in a center they have a TON of experience with.

So, my POINT in all that...is that the response you got was valid...because the data you provided is well, well, well outside the norm. IF...we assume the lanes/conditions are NOT easy...then you've essentially found an enclave of some of the best bowlers in the entire World....all bowling in the same league. Is it possible? Maybe...if it's a high $$$ scratch league where the best bowlers in the entire state/region meet up to compete...sure. But other than that...it's highly suspect, and that's why you got the more 'jaded' reaction.

I don't know your situation nor opportunities, but I'd suggest trying another center...maybe just do an additional league somewhere else...just to try and get a feel for some other conditions/centers in your area. I learned my lesson the hard way...bowling in a center where I was a 170s bowler suddenly averaging 190-192...now I have to live with that average on my record for another season or two. By the time it comes off my "previous 3 seasons"...I'm going to averaging almost 189-194...so it won't matter. But it DID hurt me in tournaments. I could have WON the OCUSBC BVL...had I not had to enter the Classic division.

Everybody likes to strike and have a high average...but, unfortunately, given the state of the game of bowling and the impossible task of the USBC actually enforcing any type of consistency in lane conditions; we have these type of problems center to center. It's like steroids in baseball...it's a shame to have to put "asterisks" next to accomplishments or criticize or be skeptical of accomplishments...but until the USBC mandates a USBC Red, White, or Blue pattern for all sanctioned leagues...and actually does random compliance checks...we'll never be able to accurately judge a bowler's accomplishments...outside of the USBC Open Championships. And that's why you hear many stories of guys that average 225 in their house league...then go to the USBC Open and average 174...which usually humbles them to the point that they never venture outside their center again.

[Tony]

Pretty much mc_runner covered it with his reply, It's going to depend on the league and its makeup.

Example leagues:
A bowler who posts on another forum has high average on his league (This league wouldn't be considered highly competitive it's a little church league, Which only has 8- 4 player teams) with a 211 average. That ave. is 23 pins higher than the next highest bowler who only has a 188 average. The league overall average is 136 (154 just for the men).



On the league I bowl on, which is made up of 32 teams of 4 players with a 6 player roster (It is considered a moderately competitive league here) . We have 20 bowlers with a 200 and up average (6 with 220+ aves). The highest average is 242 (He's the PSO here and he's not a house hack.). The next highest ave. is 235 so only 7 pins difference. The league overall average is 170 (182 just for the men).

This league is 20 teams / 5 roster or 100 bowlers, quite a few are the better bowlers in the area, it's considered one of the top handicap leagues. There are several bowlers with regional, ABT, and PBA experience. We also have a Gold level coach in the area, he has helped increase averages overall, over the past couple of years. The fellow that took the highest average, is a step above, and finished in the top 5% of all bowlers at this years Masters, so he's really good.

[Tony]

Tony,
Lemme respond to your question a little differently, because I understand that you feel the responses were a bit "jaded".

4) To answer your question....Yes. A 17-pin margin is fairly 'high' given the data I've presented above. It's not 'extreme'...I mean, 8-10 is certainly possible. But "17"...thats really high. Usually, I'd only expect to see that if a high-level (college player, former professional, pro shop owner, former youth star, etc....) player joins a league in a center they have a TON of experience with.

So, my POINT in all that...is that the response you got was valid...because the data you provided is well, well, well outside the norm. IF...we assume the lanes/conditions are NOT easy...then you've essentially found an enclave of some of the best bowlers in the entire World....all bowling in the same league. Is it possible? Maybe...if it's a high $$$ scratch league where the best bowlers in the entire state/region meet up to compete...sure. But other than that...it's highly suspect, and that's why you got the more 'jaded' reaction.

I don't know your situation nor opportunities, but I'd suggest trying another center...maybe just do an additional league somewhere else...just to try and get a feel for some other conditions/centers in your area.

I can see that your example of leagues, average, and differential support an answer to the question of Yes, that's a larger spread than most leagues.
However asserting that because there are some bowlers in the league with higher averages than your leagues, that the lanes are "easy" is not supported by any of the evidence you presented, nor was it even part of the question.
You don't know where or who I'm bowling with, are there differences in the shot on different lanes, sure, the question didn't inquire about that.
FYI I did state one of my teammates was just in Vegas shooting for the USBC open, he shot exactly 20 pins OVER his house average while in Vegas, so does that mean the lanes there are way easier than back home .....well I just presented more evidence that they are than you presented for the opposite point. I'm not saying they are but hopefully you see the point.

I've bowled at quite a few other area lanes and to tell the truth there are a couple of places where I score better than where I'm bowling now, but I'm not an ultra high avg bowler and I'd rather bowl with my buddies so that's why I bowl at that place.
A number of the other guys bowl at other local lanes and their averages vary a little from place to place, I'll use one particular guy who bowls all over including other cities and I can honestly say there are a couple places he bowls better and a few he bowls worse, his average at the place I bowl is about 10 below his highest avg and 6 pins above his lowest.

Then jaded answer was from fordman, that didn't respond to the question at all, and asked for the league sheet, was off the subject, uncalled for, and derogatory. "where is this great place at"


I understand you followed that invalid and useless response. Let him prove who he is on his own.

[Aslan]

Tony-

One additional point I forgot to make:

I bowl in the Orange County USBC. It is a large association, in one of the larger metropolitan areas of Southern California. There are 11 centers, roughly 100-150 sanctioned leagues, and nearly 6,000 bowlers. I would say, in terms of "size", it would rival any USBC with the exception of maybe New York or Chicago....or Detroit...maybe St. Louis.

Last year, in the OCUSBC yearbook...there were TEN (10) bowlers that had averages of 230 or higher. Ten out of nearly 6,000. And, 6 of those 10 bowlers were PBA regional pros...not sure about the other 4.

Again, not trying beat the horse to death...I just wanted you to understand "why" you got the reaction you got. It would be the same reaction someone would get if they said they were in a golf league and each outing there are 3 hole-in-ones and 3/4 of the golfers are scratch -10, and at least half can hit 450 yard drives.

And, I agree with you...it's "possible" that the lanes aren't easy and it's just a high concentration of talent. Maybe it's in a rural area and there are a lot of colleges nearby with strong college programs and the college kids bowl in the leagues. Maybe it's a rural area where there just aren't enough centers to "spread around" the talent. I can't say for certain because you don't list a hometown/location and I've never bowled (I don't think) at the center you bowl at. I just wanted you to understand "why" the reaction was...maybe not what you hoped/expected.

Gotta go. I wish I could say I was off to bowl a 230+ average and an 800-series...but....I'll probably just average in the 180s and be pissed about it....cuz thats how I roll.

[Tony]

Tony-

One additional point I forgot to make:

I bowl in the Orange County USBC. It is a large association, in one of the larger metropolitan areas of Southern California. There are 11 centers, roughly 100-150 sanctioned leagues, and nearly 6,000 bowlers. I would say, in terms of "size", it would rival any USBC with the exception of maybe New York or Chicago....or Detroit...maybe St. Louis.

Last year, in the OCUSBC yearbook...there were TEN (10) bowlers that had averages of 230 or higher. Ten out of nearly 6,000. And, 6 of those 10 bowlers were PBA regional pros...not sure about the other 4.

Again, not trying beat the horse to death...I just wanted you to understand "why" you got the reaction you got. It would be the same reaction someone would get if they said they were in a golf league and each outing there are 3 hole-in-ones and 3/4 of the golfers are scratch -10, and at least half can hit 450 yard drives.

And, I agree with you...it's "possible" that the lanes aren't easy and it's just a high concentration of talent. Maybe it's in a rural area and there are a lot of colleges nearby with strong college programs and the college kids bowl in the leagues. Maybe it's a rural area where there just aren't enough centers to "spread around" the talent. I can't say for certain because you don't list a hometown/location and I've never bowled (I don't think) at the center you bowl at. I just wanted you to understand "why" the reaction was...maybe not what you hoped/expected.

Gotta go. I wish I could say I was off to bowl a 230+ average and an 800-series...but....I'll probably just average in the 180s and be pissed about it....cuz thats how I roll.

You made it into something else, it was a question about the margin between the top average bowler and the second place guy.

[fordman1]

First I had no intention of insulting you or your league. I said that the guy was a really good bowler. No matter what you think it does sound like it is easier than a lot of houses. Good bowlers can make a house look easy. I was curious to see your sheet nothing more.

I had a bowler who only bowled as a 6th man this year and he was averaging 256 after 15 games with 3 300's and a 848. He is down to 242 now after 24 games which is still 12 higher than the next bowler. He made our house look easy and still does.

I don't know how to put the tone of my voice in my post. I don't tweet, text or even own a cell phone. No social media except this. Is that paranoia?

[Aslan]

And I only added the details I did because I was trying to illustrate "why" Tony got the reaction he did. It wasn't a bunch of guys seeing the scores and ganging up on him because they're jealous or 'haters'. It's just that those scores...unless it's a very special situation...there's really no other conclusion that can be drawn. I listed my own league statistics, dating back 3-4 years....just to help illustrate the point. And I even showed the Orange County statistics...only 10 bowlers out of nearly 6,000 average 230+...and more than half of the 230+ bowlers are professionals.

I prefer to argue based on 'facts' and statistics. It's not 'personal'...I like Tony. And Tony is certainly NOT alone. There are many, many bowlers out there....even in the leagues at the 'easy' center I used to bowl at...who have an "inaccurate" view. I don't mean that in an insulting way, by any means. If I only ever bowled at one center...and 10 people had 225+ averages...and there was a 300-game a night...I'd have the same inaccurate view. And if I got on BB.com and everyone started 'hating'...I'd be just as annoyed as he was/is.

The "trick" is...how do you respond in a way that:
1) Answers the question he originally asked.
2) Illustrates that his view IS, in fact, inaccurate.

I know Tony doesn't like the answer he was given...but there is no other conclusion I can draw based on the data I've seen. Bowl1820 probably gave the best answer...because he simply answered the question and avoided the "rather curious" supporting comments. And Bowl1820's answer was correct...a smaller 'fun' league or church league....maybe one guy (or gal) joins that is really, really good...then yes. Otherwise, very uncommon...especially in Tony's example where there are multiple talented bowlers.

This same 'discussion' used to come up all the time when we'd have folks compare themselves to professional bowlers....like when Daugherty rolled a 100-game. Some bowlers thought, "Hey, I average 210...I'm better than most of those pros." Then we had many conversations and discussions about how 'easy' a THS is compared to sport conditions. To high-average, house bowlers...they don't like to admit that their '210' is essentially meaningless. But, when they join a sport shot league or roll in the USBC Open...they barely shoot a 510 series...and for most of them...thats the last time they venture outside their center.

I'm 'rare' (the nice way of saying the many alternatives) in that if I bowl on 'easy' conditions...I get frustrated and try to find harder conditions. I don't see the value in hitting 75 home runs on steroids...whether I get caught or not. At the end of the day...if I ever want to get to the 'next level' in bowling...I have to be able to bowl on harder conditions, varying conditions, and sport conditions. I take lessons twice a month...and while alot of the lessons focus on physical game improvement...alot of the lessons focus on adjustments and how/when/why to make those adjustments. There are alot of bowlers I face, in league and/or tournaments, that are better and more experienced than I am. But, as lanes transition or if we bowl at different houses/centers or in Vegas...I end up having an advantage...because I know where I need to move, adjustments I need to make, etc... It's not 'enough' to be the 'best' when facing bowlers that have decades more experience than I do...but it at least evens the odds to some extent and gives me a 'chance'. Whether this thread, or other threads, I have consistently tried to encourage all bowlers to improve their game, gain knowledge, challenge their beliefs, and push themselves. My posts here are consistent with that philosophy.

[Tony]

First I had no intention of insulting you or your league. I said that the guy was a really good bowler. No matter what you think it does sound like it is easier than a lot of houses. Good bowlers can make a house look easy. I was curious to see your sheet nothing more.

I had a bowler who only bowled as a 6th man this year and he was averaging 256 after 15 games with 3 300's and a 848. He is down to 242 now after 24 games which is still 12 higher than the next bowler. He made our house look easy and still does.

I don't know how to put the tone of my voice in my post. I don't tweet, text or even own a cell phone. No social media except this. Is that paranoia?

OK, no problem, in the future if / when you see someone has taken what you said in a different way than you intended you might want to jump back in a little sooner or even anticipate the potential reaction and include a caveat phrase in the original post. ( easier said than done) Some of the guys here are fairly good at adding them because they know they are breaching a questionable subject or situation... See Aslan's posts...
I agree some houses, and lanes score better / are easier to score on than others, the high average guy makes a lot of places and lanes look like that, his average is pretty similar more or less on all the local house shots, there are about a dozen centers in the area. Taking him out of the mix the house is pretty close to the rest of the other big six centers in the area, it's actually not even the highest scoring but in the middle.
Keep in mind this fellow isn't your average house bowler, he bowls in PBA events, and does quite well, last I looked he was in the top 50 money earnings for 2017, of course that will vary depending on the number of events he can compete in.
I won't post a sheet with people's names on it, I tried to post a snip file showing a few of the teams with stats and scores only, but for some reason the system won't allow me to upload it.