League high average margin of 17 over the second place average.

[Tony]

And I only added the details I did because I was trying to illustrate "why" Tony got the reaction he did. It wasn't a bunch of guys seeing the scores and ganging up on him because they're jealous or 'haters'. It's just that those scores...unless it's a very special situation...there's really no other conclusion that can be drawn. I listed my own league statistics, dating back 3-4 years....just to help illustrate the point. And I even showed the Orange County statistics...only 10 bowlers out of nearly 6,000 average 230+...and more than half of the 230+ bowlers are professionals.

I prefer to argue based on 'facts' and statistics. It's not 'personal'...I like Tony. And Tony is certainly NOT alone. There are many, many bowlers out there....even in the leagues at the 'easy' center I used to bowl at...who have an "inaccurate" view. I don't mean that in an insulting way, by any means. If I only ever bowled at one center...and 10 people had 225+ averages...and there was a 300-game a night...I'd have the same inaccurate view. And if I got on BB.com and everyone started 'hating'...I'd be just as annoyed as he was/is.

The "trick" is...how do you respond in a way that:
1) Answers the question he originally asked.
2) Illustrates that his view IS, in fact, inaccurate.

I know Tony doesn't like the answer he was given...but there is no other conclusion I can draw based on the data I've seen. Bowl1820 probably gave the best answer...because he simply answered the question and avoided the "rather curious" supporting comments. And Bowl1820's answer was correct...a smaller 'fun' league or church league....maybe one guy (or gal) joins that is really, really good...then yes. Otherwise, very uncommon...especially in Tony's example where there are multiple talented bowlers.

This same 'discussion' used to come up all the time when we'd have folks compare themselves to professional bowlers....like when Daugherty rolled a 100-game. Some bowlers thought, "Hey, I average 210...I'm better than most of those pros." Then we had many conversations and discussions about how 'easy' a THS is compared to sport conditions. To high-average, house bowlers...they don't like to admit that their '210' is essentially meaningless. But, when they join a sport shot league or roll in the USBC Open...they barely shoot a 510 series...and for most of them...thats the last time they venture outside their center.

I'm 'rare' (the nice way of saying the many alternatives) in that if I bowl on 'easy' conditions...I get frustrated and try to find harder conditions. I don't see the value in hitting 75 home runs on steroids...whether I get caught or not. At the end of the day...if I ever want to get to the 'next level' in bowling...I have to be able to bowl on harder conditions, varying conditions, and sport conditions. I take lessons twice a month...and while alot of the lessons focus on physical game improvement...alot of the lessons focus on adjustments and how/when/why to make those adjustments. There are alot of bowlers I face, in league and/or tournaments, that are better and more experienced than I am. But, as lanes transition or if we bowl at different houses/centers or in Vegas...I end up having an advantage...because I know where I need to move, adjustments I need to make, etc... It's not 'enough' to be the 'best' when facing bowlers that have decades more experience than I do...but it at least evens the odds to some extent and gives me a 'chance'. Whether this thread, or other threads, I have consistently tried to encourage all bowlers to improve their game, gain knowledge, challenge their beliefs, and push themselves. My posts here are consistent with that philosophy.

I understand your viewpoint, and I accept that some places are harder or easier to play, I'm not saying that the place I play is the hardest shot ever, but I took a few minutes and looked at several of the bowlers who hold these higher averages.\\

Yes, I also see your point toward having a uniform standard that can be applied nation wide to be able to realistically compare scores across the country and make it more reasonable to handle tournaments .

They bowl at a number of different centers and have some pretty high averages in those centers also, they collectively hold a number of NCAA, Local, State and Regional Titles, several are USBC HOF members, so while they might not average the exact same amount at the center you play at I have no problem thinking most of them would hold their own with higher scoring guys in the league, and conversely I don't see anyone averaging 200 elsewhere that would walk in here and magically average 230.

[Aslan]

They bowl at a number of different centers and have some pretty high averages in those centers also, they collectively hold a number of NCAA, Local, State and Regional Titles, several are USBC HOF members, so while they might not average the exact same amount at the center you play at I have no problem thinking most of them would hold their own with higher scoring guys in the league, and conversely I don't see anyone averaging 200 elsewhere that would walk in here and magically average 230.

See...THATs the exception I mentioned.

From a data/statistics standpoint...my analysis is hard to argue with.

HOWEVER...like I said when I listed 'possible exceptions'...if this is a rural center or a center close to colleges with advanced bowling programs....then, it makes more sense. Still seems "questionable"...but that explanation makes sense. It also makes sense that these guys are PBA regional guys...like I said...if you're averaging over 225 on a THS...then you should be taking your shots at that 'next level'.

[Amyers]

A lot of this conversation has to do with locality. Here if its a big money league people will drive to them it's not uncommon for a big money league to have 8-10 guys averaging well on the plus side of 220 does that mean we have a huge number of high caliber bowlers and huge centers? No. I bowled a league at a 12 lane house that had 15 bowlers who averaged 220+. The difference is here for a high money league people will drive 90 miles to bowl in that league so they pull from all over the southern part of the state.

Some of this does depend on house too though. My big money leagues for the most part with exceptions feature the same bowlers. At house A after looking at the sheets there are 3 players averaging 230+ and 11 people averaging 220+ so in all 14 players over 220+. House B has Zero players over 230+ and 6 over 220+. Leagues are of similar size and have a lot of the same players but not entirely the difference in my opinion House A has synthetics and a new oil machine House B is Wood with an oil machine that looks like something out of a 70's sci-fi show.

[Aslan]

...The difference is here for a high money league people will drive 90 miles to bowl in that league so they pull from all over the southern part of the state.

...House A has synthetics and a new oil machine House B is Wood...

Exactly correct.

As I explained in my responses...there are only FOUR possible reasons that someone might have a high concentration of high average bowlers and a lot of honor scores....that DOESN'T mean the center is EASY:
1) It's a high $$$ league (as Amyers described above). We have a Budweiser league at one of the southern LA centers...where I think first place gets $12,000 or something like that. It's a scratch league, it's been around FOREVER, and it attracts a ton of regional PBA guys, retired PBA national guys and gals, former college bowlers, and the higher-level amateurs.

2) It's a "wood house" and there are a ton of guys that have it "figured out".
Wood houses can cut both ways. Like Amyers mentioned...they can be GREATLY frustrating to most high level bowlers that don't have the ultra-weak equipment necessary to compete on those rather "antique" conditions. BUT...I used to bowl at a wood house...and there were a handful of guys that had bowled there for over a decade, using older equipment, and just let that ball go up the track like they were throwing it down a water slide...you almost "couldn't miss" if you could consistently hit the 8-11 boards at the arrows and had some speed/loft.

3) It's near a college or group of colleges that have a well-developed bowling program.
For example, if you're in Kansas...and you bowl at a center where bowlers from Wichita State bowl league...and there's another private college nearby...also with a competitive bowling team...that's a LOT of talent concentrated in one area. If you add in some high-level pros and PBA regional guys...it's a possibility.

4) Rural Areas
Some areas of the country only have a couple centers within 45 minutes of a bowler. These centers can be very small...which means ALL of the talented bowlers in that area MUST bowl at one center...or drive an hour and a half to a different center.

I did some initial research on the topic...both of Tony's area and of MY area...and here's a snippet of how the centers in Orange County look (summary at the end):

Method(s):
Look at honor scores rolled in 2016 and number of leagues at the center. I thus was able to get a "800 series/league" and "300-game/league" value. It's important to factor in the # of leagues (as you'll see), because some of these centers are QUITE large...and have a great many more leagues than other centers.

"Easy OCUSBC Centers"

10) Westminster Lanes
Location: Westminster, CA
Lanes: 40
Leagues: 29
800 Series/League/Year: 0.759
300 Games/League/Year: 1.655

I'd like to add more details on this center (and welcome those who have bowled there to chime in), but it's one of the rare OC centers I've never bowled at. Not "intentionally"...just never had a reason to.

"Normal/Average OCUSBC Centers"

9) La Habra 300
Location: La Habra, CA
Lanes: 32
Leagues: 17
800 Series/League/Year: 0.294
300 Games/League/Year: 0.765
Aslan's Average at this center (games): 162 (32)

I'm unsure about this one's ranking...ONLY because I HAVE bowled at this center and I think there are some other factors that weigh in. This center is 'barely' in Orange County....it's closer to LA. So, the people from this area have to drive a 'little' further to get to another center. AND, this center does have a league that features some pretty high average bowlers, including Glenn Allison and some regional pros. So, I'd put an (*) next to this one.

8) AMF Carter Bowl
Location: Fullerton, CA
Lanes: 40
Leagues: 24
800 Series/League/Year: 0.167
300 Games/League/Year: 0.958
Aslan's Average at this center (games): 188 (204)

This is the "easy" center I listed in my personal results earlier in the thread. I averaged in the 190s at this center...while averaging in the high 170s/low 180s at other centers. This center has a very nice "bounce area" at the breakpoint...a LOT of 300 games at this center. Not as many 800 series though...just because it's an older center and the lanes WILL break down during league play. Despite it being near Cal State Fullerton, I wouldn't say this center attracts a lot of high level talent. This is also the center I shot my only 300-game (in practice).

7) Irvine Lanes
Location: Irvine, CA
Lanes: 40
Leagues: 11
800 Series/League/Year: 0.1818
300 Games/League/Year: 0.727
Aslan's Average at this center (games): 155 (9)

I'd have personally ranked this one "harder"...only because it plays more like a "heavy-oil" house...which is rare in Orange County. It's a very well-kept center...and the lanes don't transition as much as they do elsewhere. It's a more "predictable" shot night-to-night. Maybe that's why it lends itself to slightly more honor scores.

6) Saddleback Lanes
Location: Mission Viejo, CA
Lanes: 32
Leagues: 14
800 Series/League/Year: 0.2143
300 Games/League/Year: 0.4286

Also a rare house I've never bowled at. It's on the other side of Orange County, towards San Diego. In past years, it's been one of the "higher average" houses in OC. I've never bowled there...so I can't offer much more insight than that.

5) Forest Lanes
Location: Lake Forest, CA
Lanes: 40
Leagues: 21
800 Series/League/Year: 0.095
300 Games/League/Year: 0.619
Aslan's Average at this center (games): 189 (16)

I've found these lanes to be rather "easy". A lot of dry on the outside and they don't transition too quickly.

"Harder/More Difficult OC Centers"

4) Concourse Bowling Center
Location: Anaheim Hills, CA
Lanes: 40
Leagues: 14
800 Series/Year/League: 0.07143
300 Games/Year/League: 0.357
Aslan's Average at this center (games): 169 (975)

This center was really easy when they had wood lanes. Take any weaker, older ball...throw it up the track...it was like a heat-seeking missile to the pocket. But...as MWhite found out when I defeated him (scratch) on these lanes way back when...the lanes rewarded lower-rev, high-speed, high-loft bowlers...and absolutely punished higher rev/lower speed/ non-lofting bowlers. Mike's rev rate and non-lofting made beating me on those wood lanes almost impossible.

Then...they switched to synthetics. And that changed the equation a bit. The center does a great job with leagues...but it's not "league friendly". They do a TON of business with local college kids and wealthy high school kids in the affluent areas nearby...a lot of corporate bowling parties...and leagues seem to be a bit of an "annoyance" to their owner. SO...sometimes they oil a little...sometimes they don't. Most of the time they oil before league play...sometimes they don't. Sometimes they let open bowlers bowl on the lanes just before league play...and they've even canceled some leagues on busier nights and limited the number of teams on other nights because they were turning away too many open bowlers. So, trying to bowl well at this center is "hit or miss"...and it seems they have applied a 32ft (or less) pattern...lower volume...just about any modern ball will roll out midway to 3/4 down the lane. I've been reduced to throwing a Track 300A or Hammer Big Blue Spare ball. Only other option is to drastically change my approach...add speed...add loft...all things that might ruin the progress I've made in my physical game.

3) Fountain Bowl
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
Lanes: 60
Leagues: 43
800 Series/League/Year: 0.070
300 Games/League/Year: 0.0419
Aslan's Average at this center (games): 180 (35)

This one surprises me because I've always found this house rather "easy". I think it plays alot like Forest Lanes. This is also a fairly popular house with higher average. former regional pros, etc... bowlers. But, this is also where the "math" is a factor. This is a huge center, a PBA/PBA50/PWBA tour stop, and has over 40 leagues. So, while there are certainly going to be a fair share of higher averages...there is going to be a "mix".

2) Linbrook Bowling Center
Location: Anaheim, CA
Lanes: 40
Leagues: 39
800 Series/League/Year: 0.0513
300 Games/League/Year: 0.231
Aslan's Average at this center (games): 180 (528)

This is a challenging center because it dates back to the late 1950s. The pattern is somewhat stable, but it's a split house...so one side plays differently than the other. However, the lanes transition quickly...which doesn't lend itself well to consistent scoring nor honor scores...so it's no real surprise it would have one of the lowest honor scores/league. This center does a weekly scratch trios league with some of the area's top bowlers...and only 1/4 of the league averages 200 or higher...the highest average is 213. It's not uncommon for bowlers in this center, that average in the 195-215 range, for them to average 205-230 in other houses.

1) AMF Valley View Lanes
Location: Garden Grove, CA
Lanes: 32
Leagues: 11
800 Series: 0
300 Games/League/Year: 0.273

Like Westminster and Saddleback, I've never bowled this center. It's a Bowlmor/AMF center, so I'm no hurry to bowl there. In reality, I'd probably give this one an (*) as well...it could easily be #2...because if there was 1 800 series bowled there in 2016...it would greatly change the equation...simply because it only has 11 leagues.

Summary in next post (length restrictions).

[Aslan]

Summary:
I don't have the dilemmas of #1, #2, #3, or #4 listed above. The main difference, using honor score data, between the houses/centers seems to point to Westminster Lanes being clearly an "easy" house. But, I've never bowled there myself so I can only go by extrapolative data. The data is somewhat "questionable" for a couple reasons:

1) La Habra 300 and Irvine Lanes made the list of "easier" lanes...and that has not been my experience. I've bowled tournaments at those houses and would MUCH rather bowl at Forest Lanes or Fountain Bowl. La Habra 300 also has a little bit of the "rural" and "consolidated talent" thing going for it...on a lesser scale of course...but it's an (*).

2) I had to factor in the # of lanes...but even doing so...honor scores are few and far between compared to using averages. That makes statistical analysis and determining statistical significance more difficult. I can be fairly certain that Westminster Lanes are, on average, "easier". And, given the number of leagues, I can be fairly certain that Fountain Bowl is a little harder and Linbrook a good deal harder. But centers like Concourse and Valley View...harder to use the statistics...not enough leagues.

I'm also 'tinkering' with using average data. I've started compilation efforts...which is easy given that OCUSBC does a great job with publishing statistics...but it'll take some time to compile, organize, and analyze. Why the effort? I'm good with numbers and the topic interests me. I'd very much like to see bowling averages and honor scores "mean" something...and currently they are very 'suspect'.

As to Tony's center...it's harder to analyze that data. It is a center that has higher averages than other centers in the area...it's not a "rural" situation, the league isn't an "all-star" type league, it's not a wood house (as far as I know)...so, my instinct is the averages are a bit inflated. However, as Tony mentioned...it's a center with some famous coaches in and around it...and I could see that having a legitimate impact.

[NewToBowling]

Woah, that's a lot of research. Looks like a senior thesis

[Timmyb]

Looking at my league (a 965 scratch), I was 4th highest with a 215. High was a 227. In order, 227, 224, 216, 215, 214, 212, and then 196. So, some disparity between 6th and 7th. Works that way in a lot of leagues, scratch or handicap. I was in one handicap league that I was 15 pins over the 2nd place guy.

[Aslan]

Woah, that's a lot of research. Looks like a senior thesis

Wait till you see the second round...

Looking at my league (a 965 scratch), I was 4th highest with a 215. High was a 227. In order, 227, 224, 216, 215, 214, 212, and then 196. So, some disparity between 6th and 7th. Works that way in a lot of leagues, scratch or handicap. I was in one handicap league that I was 15 pins over the 2nd place guy.

I would expect higher averages in a scratch league because you're essentially in the "#1" example below...a scratch league attracts the "best of the best". I know more than one PBA or former PBA bowler...and while they don't currently bowl in any leagues...when they did last, it was only scratch leagues...and if they bowl in tournaments (other than PBA), those are almost always scratch tournaments.

The scratch league I mentioned is in a "more difficult" house...and it's a trios league that is fairly small in size...but about 30% of the participants average > 200. Most handicap leagues in this area, < 10% of the handicap league averages 200 or higher. In this particular league, the high averages are: 224, 212, 212, 211, 209, 206, 206, 203, 202, 201, 201, 201, 201, 200.