2 handed debate thread

[Aslan]

Consistency and spare shooting.

If you can score >250 in a game...but can't manage a 600 series...either:

1) You have lanes that transition quickly and you don't have the knowledge necessary to battle that.

or, more likely for beginners and newer bowlers...

2) You are 2-handed, thumbless, high-rev bowling...you get a ton of carry when you hit the pocket...but spare shooting is abysmal and as you tire...your shot doesn't stay consistent.

[chip82901]

Consistency and spare shooting.

If you can score >250 in a game...but can't manage a 600 series...either:

1) You have lanes that transition quickly and you don't have the knowledge necessary to battle that.

or, more likely for beginners and newer bowlers...

2) You are 2-handed, thumbless, high-rev bowling...you get a ton of carry when you hit the pocket...but spare shooting is abysmal and as you tire...your shot doesn't stay consistent.

Being 2-handed or thumbless or with a high rev rate doesn't make you a bad spare shooter or inconsistent. I've been a 2 hander my entire life and I can attest I'm quite good at spares. Also, my rev rate is around 400, and I can hit just about any mark you want on the lane and find a way to hit the pocket. Your comment about being 2 handed is pretty dumb. Most new 2-handers I could see having some issues with these things, but your comment comes out as saying all 2-handers. Just clarify yourself first

[Aslan]

Being 2-handed or thumbless or with a high rev rate doesn't make you a bad spare shooter or inconsistent. I've been a 2 hander my entire life and I can attest I'm quite good at spares. Also, my rev rate is around 400, and I can hit just about any mark you want on the lane and find a way to hit the pocket. Your comment about being 2 handed is pretty dumb. Most new 2-handers I could see having some issues with these things, but your comment comes out as saying all 2-handers. Just clarify yourself first

It's a well-understood weakness of higher rev styles.

CAN a higher rev bowler with these less-used styles do great at spares and have consistent series? Absolutely. I can think of 2 bowlers that I bowl against in league that are 2-handers and are very high level bowlers and great at spares. Absolutely.

BUT...there's a reason most PBA bowlers keep their thumb in the ball and are 1-handed bowlers. That reason isn't "carry"...because higher rev styles enhance carry. So, what could that reason be? Simply, that's how they've always done it? That's absurd. These players bowl for a living. If they thought taking their thumb out of the ball would help them win...they'd never use their thumbs again.

Higher rev/thumbless/cranker/2-handed styles quite simply enhance carry. And GENERALLY, the weaknesses are consistency and spare shooting. Bouncing a high-rev ball off a dry breakpoint can result in really high scores. And the bowlers that are really good (like Belmonte), have also mastered the other elements of the game in terms of where to move, how to stay consistent, and how to make spares. But, Belmonte is one of....like 3 high level bowlers in a sea of 400. And for every "Chip82901" that has mastered the style and can shoot spares at a high level...there are numerous bowlers that bowl 279-179-142 because they "tire" and then their revs and ball speed change...they start leaving splits...and they can't keep make their spares as well.

Bowling is all about consistency and repeatability...no matter what the style. The OP asked a question about why he can't shoot a 600 (or how to). My answer is consistency and spare shooting. I've seen far too many "other examples" (non-Chip examples) where bowlers just spin the heck out of a ball...it bounces off the breakpoint...and they look like Belmonte Jr. Then, they leave a 10-pin...and they miss it by 3ft. Or they get to Game #3...and they are panting and sweating and their back hurts...and they can't hit the broad side of a barn. That's what I've seen...70% of the time. NOT 100%.

But like I said...if you can shoot a >250 game...and you can't hit 600...the problem is usually consistency and/or spare shooting. Is the OP a 2-handed bowler? A cranker? A thumbless bowler? No idea. I was just guessing based on the information.

[NewToBowling]

Give it a few years. More and more two handeres will be on the PBA tour

[RobLV1]

The reason that there aren't more 2-handed bowlers on the PBA Tour is that they haven't got there yet. At this year's Master's, about 20% of the bowlers were two handers. 15 years from now, that's pretty much all you are going to see. In my recent interview with Pete Weber, I asked him if he was just starting out in bowling today would he go two-handed. He said he would and I concurred. The power that this style provides is pretty much unbeatable. As for them being bad spare shooters, they are no worse or better than any other bowler unless you are looking at the recreational league level where they've yet to hone their skills.

[chip82901]

Well, for starters, the OP said nothing about his style, you assumed...second...you assumed most 2-handers are inconsistent and get tired and have back problems...sounds like the age old saying of if you assume something you make an a** out of you and me...

Unless you're a hack, most 2 handers are MORE accurate. If I miss a 10 pin by 3 feet, I obviously did something wrong. If I leave a 10 pin, I'm probably going to drill it 9/10 times, the same as most 1-handed bowlers. This isn't just for me, this is most 2-handers that have actually taken the time to get better. I don't know how it goes out there in SoCal, but it sounds like you bowl with a bunch of 2-handed hacks that saw Belmo bowling well with it and decided to try it.

Now...I don't knock on new bowlers, or anyone trying it, as it is a difficult style to learn and master. Hell, I've been doing it my entire life and still haven't mastered it. But, I also try to learn something new every season, every tournament. You can't get better if you don't constantly learn something new.

As for the OP's post about shooting 250 and not shooting 600...I've been there, as most of us have. I bowl in probably the most difficult house in Wyoming. Twister pins, plus difficult oil break down, means averages are low, and you are constantly having to read adjustments. The house has changed DRAMATICALLY over the last 8 years. I went from averaging well over 200, to 190 this year. Now, I'll be the first to say, it's not just the house. I've had to change my approach, my release, timing, you name it, because I've gotten older (29 now), and sports injuries from HS are finally starting to catch up.

Your post kinda pissed me off, because I've battled the 2-handed critics my entire life, and I've had to be the advocate around here for them. Try to refrain from talking bad on any bowler. It's a dying sport that desperately needs new bowlers joining, whether they bowl 1-handed, 2-handed, or I hate to say it, even our little sniper buddy. The game is evolving, either jump on the train, or get run over by it, the choice is yours.

[Amyers]

Well, for starters, the OP said nothing about his style, you assumed...second...you assumed most 2-handers are inconsistent and get tired and have back problems...sounds like the age old saying of if you assume something you make an a** out of you and me...

Unless you're a hack, most 2 handers are MORE accurate. If I miss a 10 pin by 3 feet, I obviously did something wrong. If I leave a 10 pin, I'm probably going to drill it 9/10 times, the same as most 1-handed bowlers. This isn't just for me, this is most 2-handers that have actually taken the time to get better. I don't know how it goes out there in SoCal, but it sounds like you bowl with a bunch of 2-handed hacks that saw Belmo bowling well with it and decided to try it.

Now...I don't knock on new bowlers, or anyone trying it, as it is a difficult style to learn and master. Hell, I've been doing it my entire life and still haven't mastered it. But, I also try to learn something new every season, every tournament. You can't get better if you don't constantly learn something new.

As for the OP's post about shooting 250 and not shooting 600...I've been there, as most of us have. I bowl in probably the most difficult house in Wyoming. Twister pins, plus difficult oil break down, means averages are low, and you are constantly having to read adjustments. The house has changed DRAMATICALLY over the last 8 years. I went from averaging well over 200, to 190 this year. Now, I'll be the first to say, it's not just the house. I've had to change my approach, my release, timing, you name it, because I've gotten older (29 now), and sports injuries from HS are finally starting to catch up.

Your post kinda pissed me off, because I've battled the 2-handed critics my entire life, and I've had to be the advocate around here for them. Try to refrain from talking bad on any bowler. It's a dying sport that desperately needs new bowlers joining, whether they bowl 1-handed, 2-handed, or I hate to say it, even our little sniper buddy. The game is evolving, either jump on the train, or get run over by it, the choice is yours.

I'm not a big proponent of two handed bowling in my opinion it should have been banned as soon as it started (if happy gilmores method of driving actually worked think the PGA wouldn't have banned it in a hot minute) but you can't put the genie back in the bottle at this point. On THS shots even a poor two hander has an advantage. On sport shots and PBA level bowling they have to be as accurate as everyone else at least until they blow a hole in the pattern anyway. I actually think it takes much more work for a two hander to master spare shooting and kudos to those that do.

I see both sides of this issue and assuming he is two handed is wrong. I have some teammates who bowl two-handed I have no issue with them and both are capable spare shooters. I also know a few house hacks that are two handed that carry 215 averages that can't make a spare and are just as likely to shoot 140 as 240. I've seen a few of these from one handed bowlers also its just less obvious. I never blame the players I'll take every legal advantage I can get if I was 20 years younger might relearn that way myself.

As far as the age and bowling goes Aslan carries it to an extreme Not every two hander will be out of the game at 45 but last night one of the guys on my league celebrated his 72nd birthday still roles a beautiful ball and averages in the high 190s in a tough house do I see that as a possibility for a two hander no way.

[NewToBowling]

The reason that there aren't more 2-handed bowlers on the PBA Tour is that they haven't got there yet. At this year's Master's, about 20% of the bowlers were two handers. 15 years from now, that's pretty much all you are going to see. In my recent interview with Pete Weber, I asked him if he was just starting out in bowling today would he go two-handed. He said he would and I concurred. The power that this style provides is pretty much unbeatable. As for them being bad spare shooters, they are no worse or better than any other bowler unless you are looking at the recreational league level where they've yet to hone their skills.

Yep, just give it time. The quick rise of two handers just in the last few years is astonishing.

[chrono00]

I've thrown two handed a few games messing around in open bowling and done ok.

But normally no... One handed medium speed/rev rate.

[chip82901]

I'm not a big proponent of two handed bowling in my opinion it should have been banned as soon as it started (if happy gilmores method of driving actually worked think the PGA wouldn't have banned it in a hot minute) but you can't put the genie back in the bottle at this point. On THS shots even a poor two hander has an advantage. On sport shots and PBA level bowling they have to be as accurate as everyone else at least until they blow a hole in the pattern anyway. I actually think it takes much more work for a two hander to master spare shooting and kudos to those that do.

I see both sides of this issue and assuming he is two handed is wrong. I have some teammates who bowl two-handed I have no issue with them and both are capable spare shooters. I also know a few house hacks that are two handed that carry 215 averages that can't make a spare and are just as likely to shoot 140 as 240. I've seen a few of these from one handed bowlers also its just less obvious. I never blame the players I'll take every legal advantage I can get if I was 20 years younger might relearn that way myself.

As far as the age and bowling goes Aslan carries it to an extreme Not every two hander will be out of the game at 45 but last night one of the guys on my league celebrated his 72nd birthday still roles a beautiful ball and averages in the high 190s in a tough house do I see that as a possibility for a two hander no way.

That's the thing though...I've been bowling 2-handed for as long as I can remember (started bowling around 3-4, now 29). I honestly can see myself bowling like this for many more years. Like any sport, you have to take care of yourself to continue. I wouldn't say on a THS a 2-hander has an advantage over anyone! Yes, most have a higher rev rate, but you still have the same 60 feet, the same pins, and have to be able to make adjustments. Any 1-hander has the ability to put more revs on the ball. Hell, look at Tackett, Mallott...there's many more that have a higher rev rate than say, Anthony Simonsen. He's a 2-hander, but his rev rate and ball speed isn't through the roof. Belmo is just a freak of nature when it comes to how he releases the ball. Most 2-handers don't have near the speed, revs, nor accuracy that he has.