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Thread: A bowling misconception that knowledge should outweigh talent ?

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobLV1 View Post
    You are ALL deluding yourselves. Join a PBA Experience or Tough Shot league and see how many pins your average drops (20, 30, 40 or more). Going from one house shot to another house shot at another center is not the equivalent of bowling on a sport shot. House shots use oil ratios of 10:1 or higher. Sport shots are 2:1 and PBA shots are a max of 3:1. It's not just a matter of standing on 20, or 22, or 18 and hitting 10. It's a matter of understanding the pattern, the characteristics of the center, and your bowling balls to give yourselves the best chance of scoring. You don't get the advantage of free hook to your right to forgive errant shots. You can't compare different baseball fields to different kinds of oil patterns.
    Also, much of the home field advantage in team and professional sports is due to intangible factors like the crowd cheering for you instead of booing. Most of the time amateur bowlers have only their teammates rooting for them.
    John

  2. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by LOUVIT View Post
    Agree and disagree, it you throw a hard straight ball and get pin action the oil patterns do not matter. I have seen people that use house balls and throw straight to the pocket and are more consistent then I'll ever be. They do not have to adjust or switch and don't give a dam where the oil is
    I have a family friend who is not a bowler who has a tremendously over-inflated ego. We went bowling a few months ago and said the exact same thing that you just did. There is a reason that there is not one world-class bowler who throws a straight ball and it's not because they are inconsistent. It is purely a matter of angle and rev rate equaling the power to knock down pins.

  3. #13
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    Still going with "shut up and bowl".
    Old guy with power (15.5-16; 325). Current arsenal--Storm Summit, RotoGrip Idol Helios, Storm Phaze III, Storm SureLock (retired), Storm IQ Tour Nano and Motiv Rebel tank (spare/dry). High sanctioned game - 300 (4). High sanctioned series - 856. A.V. 300-s - 8. Longest string - 25.
    2023/2024 YTD highs--High game-289; high series-739

  4. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by Timmyb View Post
    Still going with "shut up and bowl".
    If you had ever bowled on a sport pattern, believe me, you would have known it. USBC Nationals are filled with bowlers who "shut up and bowl"... 150!

  5. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by RobLV1 View Post
    You are ALL deluding yourselves. Join a PBA Experience or Tough Shot league and see how many pins your average drops (20, 30, 40 or more). Going from one house shot to another house shot at another center is not the equivalent of bowling on a sport shot. House shots use oil ratios of 10:1 or higher. Sport shots are 2:1 and PBA shots are a max of 3:1. It's not just a matter of standing on 20, or 22, or 18 and hitting 10. It's a matter of understanding the pattern, the characteristics of the center, and your bowling balls to give yourselves the best chance of scoring. You don't get the advantage of free hook to your right to forgive errant shots. You can't compare different baseball fields to different kinds of oil patterns.
    Not deluding myself at all, just offering another item to consider, in my opinion the guy who can bowl different centers and bowl well is a good bowler, I never said it was the same as a PBA experience or sport shot of course it's not the same level, on the the other hand you seem to be saying you can't be a good bowler unless you can score well on sport shot or PBA experience.
    Am I allowed by your standards to say the guy who averaged 250 in my league is a good player, or does he only become good if he plays well on sport shot or PBA experience, or can I only call him good if he finishes in the top 20 in the Masters.

    So again lets compare this to another sport, if a guy goes out to to local courses and shoots an under par golf round week after week, would you say he's not good because he's not playing PGA tournament courses and the same logic he could play a PGA course that doesn't have the pins set or greens trimmed to PGA levels so instead of considering him a good golfer, he's another player taking advantage of the easy course.

    I mean if he went from the standard local course, to a high end course , to a PGA level course, to a cut and tournament prepped course his score will likely increase as it gets more challenging, he will have to know what ball and club to use and make tough decisions on how to play the holes, but at what point does he become a "good" golfer in your evaluation? Isn't he good if he can play under par on a regular course or does he have to play under par on the tour to be considered "good".

    You can take this to other sports and levels, so by your standards a player can only be good if he get's to a certain level that you've decided is good
    if that's the case is a kid who dominates the court in high school basketball "good" remember he's just playing against some other kids, can he be good if he plays well in college, or does have have to get to the NBA to be considered good.

    If THS is a low mark and it's no measure of skill to perform well on it, shouldn't a person that has all the knowledge of balls and oil patterns be able to easily score well on THS, would it not follow that bronze coaches be 220 bowlers, silver 230, and gold 240, on an the house shot ? I dare to say that if that were a requirement we would see a lot less coaches holding those credentials.

    So back to the original question / comment about athletic talent. Should we assume that all the PBA players have in depth knowledge of all of these aspects of the game and that's what took them to that level or do they have varied levels of knowledge and lots of physical talent.....
    Personally if I were a betting man, I would bet on the talent, it's usually the winner.
    Remember the original question had nothing to do with a THS anyway.
    Last edited by Tony; 04-30-2017 at 12:25 AM.

  6. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by J Anderson View Post
    Also, much of the home field advantage in team and professional sports is due to intangible factors like the crowd cheering for you instead of booing. Most of the time amateur bowlers have only their teammates rooting for them.
    Yes, there are many factors that make up home field advantage that's why it's intangible, the crowd, the way the field is laid out, the way the base paths are groomed, the short wall or ivy covered wall, the temp in the visitors locker room.

    It's amazing how preparations by the ground crew can make a difference in the game, but would you be better off being knowledgeable about all the different preparations or would you rather be talented, what would serve you better ? That was the question .

  7. #17

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    The USBC Open lit me up 3 ways to Sunday, and I can't blame anything other than myself for not making the proper adjustments.

    Having a sour knee and shoulder made me make personal adjustments that I couldn't overcome.

    When I bowled in the PBA Experience league last summer, my adjusted average came out to almost exactly what my average will be for the 16-17 season, which is going to be around 190.
    Southern Nevada USBC Board of Directors. DV8 - Thug Unruly, Vandal, Vandal Smash. Pitbull, Brunswick - Ultimate Nirvana, Fanatic BTU, Vintage Danger Zone, Plastic T Zone. Memberships- USBC Southern Nevada - http://www.sonvbowl.com, 9TapTour Las Vegas Region - http://www.9taptour.com, LaneSideReviews, #TeamLSR, #TeamBrunswick

  8. #18

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    In terms of the comparison to golf, Tiger Woods once commented that the local "club champion" scratch golfer (220 house bowler), couldn't break 80 on the courses that the pros play (sport shot).

    As to coaches carrying high averages, we probably would IF the skill set involved in bowling was the same as it is in teaching, but it's not.

    My own personal favorite "house bowler" story: One Sunday morning I was practicing with some friends at a large center that was hosting small tournament on a PBA pattern that morning. A 225 average bowler from the same high average league that we all bowl in came strutting up, chest puffed out, and announced that he was going to bowl the tournament. A little while later, he was back, visibly deflated. He had paid his entry fee, bowled the ten minutes of practice, and quickly withdrew from the tournament. In his own words, "I couldn't even get the ball to wiggle down there."

    Put simply, a good bowler is a good bowler on any type of shot and one can only get to be that with knowledge of oil patterns, bowling balls, and ball motion. A good "house bowler" is just that. He just "shuts up and bowls." Apparently there is nothing wrong with that as the USBC allows it to happen by not setting any kind of standards for oil patterns in sanctioned leagues, but please don't confuse the house hacks with good bowlers... they are two different animals.

  9. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by RobLV1 View Post

    As to coaches carrying high averages, we probably would IF the skill set involved in bowling was the same as it is in teaching, but it's not.

    Put simply, a good bowler is a good bowler on any type of shot and one can only get to be that with knowledge of oil patterns, bowling balls, and ball motion. A good "house bowler" is just that. He just "shuts up and bowls." Apparently there is nothing wrong with that as the USBC allows it to happen by not setting any kind of standards for oil patterns in sanctioned leagues, but please don't confuse the house hacks with good bowlers... they are two different animals.
    I would like to think most people realize the conditions the professional faces are far tougher than the conditions casual players face, I've played many local golf courses and also played Blackwolf Run in Kohler WI and Ballybunion (old course) Kerry Ireland, there is no comparison, there are holes that will humble all but the best golfers.

    That aside your two comments above are closest to addressing the original question, but to some extend are at odds with each other.
    The coaches skill set comment leans toward saying talent is the primary factor in being a good player, and the good bowler is a good bowler on any shot leans toward the opinion that knowledge is the primary factor is being a good bowler......

    Certainly it's a blend of the two that would be ideal, but the original post was eluding to what seems to be a misconception that extensive knowledge can overcome lack of talent.

    In the coaching comment, skill set, would indicated to me that although the coach knows what to do and how to do it, physical talent is his limiting factor preventing him from being high scoring player.

    The good bowler comment eludes to knowledge being required on order to be a good bowler.

    Taken together is points to an answer that would say you must have natural talent to start with and then gain the knowledge to become better able to handle the conditions, there is no evidence to indicate that advanced knowledge alone can make a person into a good bowler.

  10. #20

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    I don't think that anyone ever said that knowledge alone can make a good bowler. It can't. Likewise, physical skill alone cannot make a good bowler unless you are Pete Weber and constantly have a ball rep at your back ready to help. That being said, physical skill alone can make a good house bowler because the condition is so forgiving that it makes understanding unnecessary.

    As to the coaching comment, a coaches skill is a combination of knowledge, the ability to see, and the ability to communicate; in other words, to teach. Coaches, for the most part, are not very good bowlers for this very reason; we analyze which is detrimental to a top physical game. When you think about it, Mark Baker is the first great coach in a long, long time who was also a great bowler. He happens to have both skill sets. Most of us don't.
    Last edited by RobLV1; 04-30-2017 at 02:31 PM.

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