Aslan's Arsenal Progression Discussion Thread: (Part 1 of 6)

[Tony]

Honestly, I have NEVER heard any bowler defending an arsenal philosophy that allows them to stay on one particular part of the lane. The reason for this is pretty apparent: IT DOESN'T WORK! Defend it until you are blue in the face, but the fact of the matter is that when the balls absorb the oil, and the oil is GONE, you only have one alternative: to find more oil. To think that you can ball down and stay in the same place is delusional. Once again, man up and pay the $37 for a BTM subscription and read my article that will be up in the next week or so. Here's a hint: a 41' pattern, after just 22 games is 34' long. There is no "progression" of ball changes that is going to allow you to play a pattern that is 7' shorter after just 22 games.

None of the bowlers I know preach the type of approach ASLAN is using either, now I have had / seen occasions that due to the bowlers on the pair a bowler will be able to stay in virtually the same spot all three games, but it's pretty rare. Almost everyone is moving left to find oil with an occasional guy moving back right with a ball change. I personally want balls that are different lengths / strength to allow me to play different area's, like most people, having balls that are pretty close to the same doesn't work for me, just is more balls to carry around !
What happened to this series of six pages in this series / or maybe I'm banned from it for not agreeing ?

[Aslan]

What happened to this series of six pages in this series / or maybe I'm banned from it for not agreeing ?

It became pointless.

I was trying to discuss one element of bowling ball specs at a time...but it's very hard to do...because elements tend to rely on each other.

It's one of the reasons most bowlers care so little about bowling ball "technology" and it's almost become a "joke". I've yet to meet anyone that can talk about each bowling ball spec and talk about it's importance...independent of other variables. Discussion quickly devolve into various versions of "everyone is different, everyone throws different, there are no "truths" in bowling, etc...

Examples:
- We talked about coverstocks. Each manufacturer makes balls in 3 coverstocks: Pearl, Hybrid, Solid. Each manufacturer spends a lot of time and effort making sure the bowler knows about these. Yet...coverstock is likely meaningless because every ball can have it's surface changed.
- We talked about "rating systems"....each manufacturer and many major websites have "rating systems"...yet none of them seem to be particularly useful.
- We talked about surface...but whats the point of considering surface in your arsenal...if surface can be changed at any time...OTHER THAN...the time you'd need to change it....which is when you are in the middle of the game and need to make a slight adjustment of the surface?

The next topic was going to be core symmetry...yet another topic most people don't understand and most people think is meaningless. Then we were going to move onto RG and differential...but...it's just gonna be more examples of balls with high RGs that don't necessarily go longer...and balls with low RGs that should make them hook sooner....but they are skid/flip balls designed to go long and snap... And differential? What's the point? During the Motiv Jackal debate...nearly everyone said differential was all but unimportant to the average bowler.

And you weren't "banned" for having a different opinion. You were called out for trolling...because ever since I disagreed with you about "easy centers"...you've made a point to go into every single thread I post in and make derrogatory comments...some related to the topic...others not. No bigee....the internet is like a toll bridge...lots times it has trolls...it's expected. And, I dish it out...so I can take it. But there just has to some "point" to it.

And lastly, we just don't have enough "experts" on the site to have a real conversation on this type of topic. We have Rob...but Rob tends to "preach" more than "teach"...and Rob believes his opinions are THE opinions. Any attempt to discuss or offer alternate views is simply met with mockery, ignoring, or stating that the people who disagree obviously don't know what they are talking about. That makes "discussions" rather difficult. And it's not just Rob's fault...we have ball rep after ball rep that pop in here on a weekly basis to prop up some new release and tell us how awesome it is...yet none of them participate in discussions like these....where their knowledge might actually be useful.

And even the premise of the conversation is kinda silly...we're talking about "arsenals" when < 20% of all bowlers use more than one ball on league night. And we're talking about "progressions" when every single person has a different method of "progressing". It's like trying to build a perfect spaceship when virtually nobody knows anything about spaceships and nobody can define what a spaceship actually is...except Iceman who has actually been on one.

[RobLV1]

This is the first time, based on what you wrote that I think that you are starting to get it. First off, if you look at my posts, I am not "preaching." When I state an opinion, it is usually based purely on logic. I say that surface is the most important element in ball reaction for the simple reason that surface CAN be easily changed. That's logic. Just because it can't be changed during competition does not negate the fact that it can be changed before competition, and it's the only element that can be easily changed anytime.

When I state something as fact, I usually include a statement about "based on my observation," or something similar. From what I have seen in my own bowling, as a lower rev player, differential means very little to me. From what I have seen in other, higher rev, players, differential means quite a bit for them. I'm not preaching. I'm just stating what I have observed.

This post gives me great hope that your understanding is increasing because it is the first time that you see that we are dealing with a fluid set of elements that change constantly. Just realizing that the set is fluid gives you a HUGE step up in terms of understanding how to view the individual elements to control your own arsenal so that it works for YOU. Good Job!

[Tony]

It became pointless.

I was trying to discuss one element of bowling ball specs at a time...but it's very hard to do...because elements tend to rely on each other.

It's one of the reasons most bowlers care so little about bowling ball "technology" and it's almost become a "joke". I've yet to meet anyone that can talk about each bowling ball spec and talk about it's importance...independent of other variables. Discussion quickly devolve into various versions of "everyone is different, everyone throws different, there are no "truths" in bowling, etc...

Examples:
- We talked about coverstocks. Each manufacturer makes balls in 3 coverstocks: Pearl, Hybrid, Solid. Each manufacturer spends a lot of time and effort making sure the bowler knows about these. Yet...coverstock is likely meaningless because every ball can have it's surface changed.
- We talked about "rating systems"....each manufacturer and many major websites have "rating systems"...yet none of them seem to be particularly useful.
- We talked about surface...but whats the point of considering surface in your arsenal...if surface can be changed at any time...OTHER THAN...the time you'd need to change it....which is when you are in the middle of the game and need to make a slight adjustment of the surface?

The next topic was going to be core symmetry...yet another topic most people don't understand and most people think is meaningless. Then we were going to move onto RG and differential...but...it's just gonna be more examples of balls with high RGs that don't necessarily go longer...and balls with low RGs that should make them hook sooner....but they are skid/flip balls designed to go long and snap... And differential? What's the point? During the Motiv Jackal debate...nearly everyone said differential was all but unimportant to the average bowler.

And you weren't "banned" for having a different opinion. You were called out for trolling...because ever since I disagreed with you about "easy centers"...you've made a point to go into every single thread I post in and make derrogatory comments...some related to the topic...others not. No bigee....the internet is like a toll bridge...lots times it has trolls...it's expected. And, I dish it out...so I can take it. But there just has to some "point" to it.

And lastly, we just don't have enough "experts" on the site to have a real conversation on this type of topic. We have Rob...but Rob tends to "preach" more than "teach"...and Rob believes his opinions are THE opinions. Any attempt to discuss or offer alternate views is simply met with mockery, ignoring, or stating that the people who disagree obviously don't know what they are talking about. That makes "discussions" rather difficult. And it's not just Rob's fault...we have ball rep after ball rep that pop in here on a weekly basis to prop up some new release and tell us how awesome it is...yet none of them participate in discussions like these....where their knowledge might actually be useful.

And even the premise of the conversation is kinda silly...we're talking about "arsenals" when < 20% of all bowlers use more than one ball on league night. And we're talking about "progressions" when every single person has a different method of "progressing". It's like trying to build a perfect spaceship when virtually nobody knows anything about spaceships and nobody can define what a spaceship actually is...except Iceman who has actually been on one.

Maybe it seemed so to you but I wasn't trolling your posts, you simply post more than others and I have been participating more, I don't profess to being an expert in any particular area of bowling but I have years of experience in troubleshooting and the principals apply to almost everything. There is always a cause for any reaction, and everything can be explained about why things happen if you have enough knowledge, information, and ability.
You see I like Ice and many others believe in talent or ability, not just in sports but in all aspects of human performance, it's why some people make excellent Doctors, Lawyers, Teachers ect when other have equal or even more advanced knowledge are terrible at the same job. It's the ability, aptitude, common sense in the particular area that allows people to be excellent at that job / sport/ activity.
My comment were primarily to point out things that support that premise, some may have rambled into other area's but you have to admit you made some rather outlandish unsupported statement as well. Remember the one about gaining 40 pins in average by going to the Midwest, common sense would say that's not happening.
You preach a standard set of oil patterns would make everything equal, makes sense to you. To me it's an attempt, and may offer some improvement, but common sense says they won't be the same, because you can't duplicate the other conditions that have an effect on the end result, Heck the guys putting down the house shot can't even keep it exact same from day to day on their own lanes, because they don't have absolute control on the other conditions that influence it. All they have to do to mess it up is leave an overhead fan off or on that not normally in that condition.
I'm just trying to learn something but I'm not going to automatically go along with things that don't make common sense, and I'm not saying I'm right all the time.

[Tony]

I don't think the premise of an arsenal is silly, the vast majority of league bowlers in my area carry several balls and in many cases could use more information on what properties they should look at in order to have a ball to match up with their game. That's why I read and responded to the thread.

To me the the ball matrix at BTM has the possibility of being the basis for reviewing different balls, however we need to add the information on surface changes and how that can relocate the ball on the chart, You could then potentially use it to setup your own arsenal. If for example we were to say surface change can move the ball up and down on the chart you could simply choose balls at intervals going across the chart to build a grouping that could be adjust for many conditions.

we could also use more threads on surface changes overall, that would be of great help to many of us here.

[Amyers]

This is the first time, based on what you wrote that I think that you are starting to get it. First off, if you look at my posts, I am not "preaching." When I state an opinion, it is usually based purely on logic. I say that surface is the most important element in ball reaction for the simple reason that surface CAN be easily changed. That's logic. Just because it can't be changed during competition does not negate the fact that it can be changed before competition, and it's the only element that can be easily changed anytime.

When I state something as fact, I usually include a statement about "based on my observation," or something similar. From what I have seen in my own bowling, as a lower rev player, differential means very little to me. From what I have seen in other, higher rev, players, differential means quite a bit for them. I'm not preaching. I'm just stating what I have observed.

This post gives me great hope that your understanding is increasing because it is the first time that you see that we are dealing with a fluid set of elements that change constantly. Just realizing that the set is fluid gives you a HUGE step up in terms of understanding how to view the individual elements to control your own arsenal so that it works for YOU. Good Job!

I don't think rob is preachy he does tend to believe whole hardily what he says but we agree most of the time. I do agree that maybe aslan learned something here maybe. Truth is you can't simply look at each piece independently they've got to be looked at as a whole within the realms of the conditions where you will use them.

[Aslan]

I don't think rob is preachy he does tend to believe whole hardily what he says but we agree most of the time. I do agree that maybe aslan learned something here maybe. Truth is you can't simply look at each piece independently they've got to be looked at as a whole within the realms of the conditions where you will use them.

Thats essentially what I was trying to say.

If a spec cannot be analyzed as to it's importance, independent of the other specs and external factors/bias...than it is a meaningless spec and nothing more than a complex marketing trick to make bowling balls seem "advanced". If nobody understands the spec, very few even know what the spec is supposed to mean, and the spec is meaningless unless you compare it to multiple other factors....some of which have nothing to do with the ball at all (conditions, bowler, etc...)....then the specs are about as important as the color or fragarence.

[Amyers]

Thats essentially what I was trying to say.

If a spec cannot be analyzed as to it's importance, independent of the other specs and external factors/bias...than it is a meaningless spec and nothing more than a complex marketing trick to make bowling balls seem "advanced". If nobody understands the spec, very few even know what the spec is supposed to mean, and the spec is meaningless unless you compare it to multiple other factors....some of which have nothing to do with the ball at all (conditions, bowler, etc...)....then the specs are about as important as the color or fragarence.

Very few things in life meet the criteria your asking for. Ice is cold but try Dry Ice it will burn, Most people find floral scents appealing but in the right concentration they are nauseating, even car engines function differently due to the type of gas you put in them. Nothing that I know of can you take one factor of it's operation and ignore everything else and expect to get consistent results. Everything is effected my it's different components and external factors.

A good example here might be a car motor. If two cars have the same horsepower do you automatically assume they will run a 1/4 mile in the same time? Of course not the cars may have different weights, gear ratios, tires, other equipment that are all factors that influence the speed of the car not to mention the human element of the drivers. Does that make horsepower irrelevant? No but it is only one of many factors.

Even with conditions keeping with the racing analogies a race car with racing slicks is faster than a car with conventional tires right? But introduce moisture to the mix the conventional tired car may get more traction and perform better than the racing slicks.

[Tony]

Very few things in life meet the criteria your asking for. Ice is cold but try Dry Ice it will burn, Most people find floral scents appealing but in the right concentration they are nauseating, even car engines function differently due to the type of gas you put in them. Nothing that I know of can you take one factor of it's operation and ignore everything else and expect to get consistent results. Everything is effected my it's different components and external factors.

A good example here might be a car motor. If two cars have the same horsepower do you automatically assume they will run a 1/4 mile in the same time? Of course not the cars may have different weights, gear ratios, tires, other equipment that are all factors that influence the speed of the car not to mention the human element of the drivers. Does that make horsepower irrelevant? No but it is only one of many factors.

Even with conditions keeping with the racing analogies a race car with racing slicks is faster than a car with conventional tires right? But introduce moisture to the mix the conventional tired car may get more traction and perform better than the racing slicks.

Good comparison, it makes perfect sense to a car guy like me, in going with outside conditions remember to view to lane as the drag strip, they are not the same from place to place, and weather, pressure, humidity all make a difference. Imagine the track condition on a cool, cloudy windy day compared to a hot, sunny and still day, you have a world of difference and the mechanic and driver will change the tune of the car, tires, and drive it differently from day to day or early in the day to later in the day when there's lots of rubber on the track compared to early when there was no rubber down........

All the parameters still have meaning and an effect, it's just interrelated to the other parameters, just like bowling.

Bowling is the same thing, it's a complex relationship between the parameters and conditions where each individual part changes the end result in combination with the rest of the conditions and parameters.

The arsenal would then be different ball characteristics that combined make it suitable for a given condition.

We tend to want it to be simple, or be able to ignore certain specifications, who's difference should be able to help us determine what kind of ball matches up to what kind of lane for each individual bowler.

So maybe we should be going about designing what balls we should carry by first determining the different conditions we are going to be facing, then address the different options and preferred option on how to play those lane conditions,and only then address what combined features of a ball make it most suitable for a given condition and play options.

Sorry I realize I repeated some of what Amyers said, and what Rob has been getting at but it truly never appeared more clear to me than when using the car / race analogy.
It doesn't make it simple to determine what ball to use but it puts it more into perspective how many small factors influence how we perform on the lanes.

See Aslan the thread you were ready to write off, really did help explain things, thanks for starting it.

[Timmyb]

Only because I am a drag racing purist will I say this. Horsepower is less important in a drag race than torque.

Sorry. Pet peeve thing.......

I am not, nor have I ever been, a "progression" guy. Even when bowling on wood lanes, I will only switch when desperation approaches (usually too late by then). But let's face it, there's not a lot of wood left out there. Most synthetic lanes and THS allow you to use the same ball all night, which is exactly what I did this past season. I rely on my experience to be able to see conditions changing, and making adjustments on the fly. I only have three balls I use on a regular basis, and my spare ball is urethane, so that can be pushed into service as well. I'd much rather chase the shot than chase the ball. I'm sure someone will tell me I'm nuts for playing that way, but my average doesn't lie.