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Thread: Aslan's Arsenal Progression Discussion Thread: (Part 2 of 6)

  1. #11

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    Rather than the perfect score PS that is made up of exactly what, no one knows because it's a secret hasn't been much help to me, however
    the rating grid at BTM shows a couple of important (to me) factors about a given ball length / hook in a graph format you can plot with other balls
    this allows you to see length and hook properties and you can use this to help you in choosing a selection of balls that will enable you to adapt to lane conditions.

    Yes you can tweak balls to change the properties somewhat, but this lets you see, you have a medium hooking , long ball, I've many times a player say I need a ball to go a little longer, turn a harder or something similar. I've never heard a guy say I need a ball with a perfect score of 180 to 192, that would get the 10 pin out on those light hits.

    Others can and will use information that is totally useless to decide what ball they should buy and use. I for one can't see where the PS tells me anything of value at all, it's a composite number derived from multiple ball properties. How on earth does that help me unless I know what's in it.

  2. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aslan View Post
    1) I would hesitate to call these type of rating systems, "misleading". Any rating systems "can" be misleading if you rely solely on it for your decisions.
    2) As discussed in some other threads...the only things I would rate "less important" than Coverstock (least important on my list) are:
    - what manufacturers say (marketing)
    - what average bowlers say (uninformed heresay)
    - watching other bowlers throw the ball
    - what the PSO in the center says (slightly informed/biased information/slightly marketing)
    - online video reviews
    - ball demos/personal trials
    - drilling layouts

    ...in that order.

    1) Manufacturers lie in order to make $$$. I've never, not once, heard a manufacturer say, "This ball sucks...but it's a cool color scheme and has a cool name."

    2) Average bowlers are idiots....and couldn't tell you what 2 of the 6 items I've listed even mean. Most bowlers in an average house league don't even know a ball HAS a core...much less anything else.

    3) If you watch a 400rpm bowler throw a ball....and it looks awesome so you buy it...you're likely to disappointed that it doesn't do nearly the same thing with your suitcase style release.

    4) I can't count on two hands how many times BB users have complained about a ball they bought, based on a PSO recommendation. Pro shops are in the business of SELLING you things. If those things don't work...they are in the business of selling you a replacement thing. And most PSOs "think" they know way, way more than they actually do...and virtually none of them agree with each other. If they DID know as much as they pretend to...they'd be bowling rather than drilling bowling balls.

    5) Online reviews are slightly better than just watching people throw stuff...because they give you more information and are more informed than the average bowler. BUT....like manufacturers....I've never heard a bad online review and rarely seen a video where the ball doesn't strike. The only way they get free balls to throw...is by saying really awesome stuff about the balls they get for free.

    6) Ball demos are somewhat meaningful...because it's at least YOU throwing the balls. But....a good bowling ball is a a ball that FITS your hand. Bowling balls at demos rarely "fit" your hand the way they would if you bought them and had them drilled. AND...you have to hope they have the ball you want, in the weight you want, drilled in the way you want....AND....hope they put a fresh pattern down rather than bowl on open bowling conditions.
    You should clarify, average bowlers are idiots in your location. You would have a hard time finding anyone in any of the leagues I bowl in who doesn't know a ball has a core.

    Actually the PSO who bowls in my league is a good bowler, won PBA events good. Does that mean every ball he suggests is gold, no but he knows balls and how to bowl. Not that your theory has any validity anyway, remember physical talent, you can have great ball knowledge and not be a great bowler.

    On-line reviews are slightly more valuable than PS, watching people you bowl with on a regular basis is much more informative than watching Archie and Jughead throw endless strikes.

    I don't know what kind of places put on ball demo's near you but I've never seen one done on lanes after open bowling, seriously ?

    One of the things that seems to influence your viewpoint is these people you call idiots that are all around you, that might be the case, I don't know maybe they really are, if they aren't the issue could be that you feel superior to everyone for some reason, that can be solved by coming to the Midwest and calling the people around you ignorant and stupid, you will not be happy with the response you get from people.
    Are a lot of these stupid people you know high on crack, meth, potheads ?

  3. #13

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    I'm getting REALLY TIRED of all this crap about me having unlimited access to bowling balls. Once again, I PAY FOR EVERY SINGLE BOWLING BALL I THROW. Do I get a discount? Yes. It's the same discount that anyone can get who can join the PBA and pay $25 dues every month. I do not get free balls. I do not get discounts that are not available to every other PBA member on the planet! What I do is to study the core specs. Watch ball reactions from other bowlers who are using a particular ball, and make a decision on a ball that I want to BUY.

  4. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by RobLV1 View Post
    I'm getting REALLY TIRED of all this crap about me having unlimited access to bowling balls. Once again, I PAY FOR EVERY SINGLE BOWLING BALL I THROW. Do I get a discount? Yes. It's the same discount that anyone can get who can join the PBA and pay $25 dues every month. I do not get free balls. I do not get discounts that are not available to every other PBA member on the planet! What I do is to study the core specs. Watch ball reactions from other bowlers who are using a particular ball, and make a decision on a ball that I want to BUY.
    I think ASLAN is just angry about buying old balls at flea markets and getting old balls that he lashes out at anyone with current bowling balls, and assumes they must have got them somehow for free.....like some other things, it makes no sense to anyone else. BTW, everyone he interacts with in person, on a regular basis, he has deemed stupid, so take that into consideration.

  5. #15
    Bowling God Aslan's Avatar
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    1) I'll ignore Tony's nonsense...feeding internet trolls is like feeding stray cats.
    2) I have NO DOUBT in Rob's reading abilities...but he obviously mis-read my post...as I didn't say he gets unlimited free bowling bowls.

  6. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aslan View Post
    1) I'll ignore Tony's nonsense...feeding internet trolls is like feeding stray cats.
    2) I have NO DOUBT in Rob's reading abilities...but he obviously mis-read my post...as I didn't say he gets unlimited free bowling bowls.
    How exactly is a discussion thread, if you decide to discount any opinion that you disagree with, perhaps you should have called it ASLAN's arsenal progression directive, either agree with me or I'll ignore you, because I have no logical argument to back up what I want to believe.
    I see now how it is you deem everything around you stupid, all it takes is anything you don't agree with, you automatically label it "stupid" and don't have to worry about it any longer. Lets not consider all the facts, just the one's we cherry pick that make it appear that our point is correct, then ignore the people that point out the flaws or questionable logic .....that'll work just fine.....see how nice it's working on this thread, everyone believes every word you've said...SMH

  7. #17
    Bowling Guru Amyers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aslan View Post
    1)

    But again...you and Rob tend to be in the "Candyland" camp....where you're basing that on the assumption that every bowler has access to every bowling ball on the market and can simply go to the lanes....throw every ball...and make a decision. That's NOT an option for 99.999999% of bowlers. The point of a rating system...is to give you some type of data...so you can limit your choices to a certain subset of balls that are most likely to fit your needs.

    Absolutely....throwing every new release...drilled to fit your hand...drilled in every possible layout...on conditions you are likely to see on league night would be IDEAL. But, it would also be IMPOSSIBLE.

    Like I said when I added my 2 cents....these rating "compromise rating systems" 'can' be misleading...IF you use them by themselves. And...since PerfectScale seems to mirror differential...I'm not sure how valuable it is to consider both of them. On the other hand, as listed above, I think I'd trust PerfectScale or the BTM/Bowling Journal numeric ratings more than I'd trust "Clive McDoodle" who recommends Ball A because it smells like a pomegranate and he once bowled a 250 with it.

    .
    I don't think I mentioned throwing every ball I was interested in. That's not easily possible. First off I limit myself to only purchasing from 2 family of brands mainly Brunswick family and If they didn't have what I wanted storm family. We have 2 major proshops in the area and one basically sells Brunswick the other Storm they will order the other stuff and a few do but it's mostly those two brands you see on the lanes here. It's harder to see the other stuff roll. When I'm interested in buying a piece I know what I want it to do so I look at cores that are likely to produce the desired motion then strength of cover that I believe from seeing similar balls roll it's not hard to find a couple of people rolling the ball that are somewhat similar to my game to confirm my opinion. by that point I've narrowed the choices down to 2-3 balls. Sometimes its stronger weaker than I expected and have to look at the next option sometimes it's not.

    I've told you before if the bowlers on your current leagues suck so bad you need to find different leagues. My mixed Saturday league is somewhat like that (the average bowler isn't good) but even on it there are ten guys and a couple women worth watching. My Wednesday and travel league I can gain info on pretty much any of them. Some bowlers your correct I can't judge much off a two hander or someone that rockets the ball at 20 mph but most I can adjust what they do to what I do.
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  8. #18
    Bowling God Aslan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amyers View Post
    I've told you before if the bowlers on your current leagues suck so bad you need to find different leagues. My mixed Saturday league is somewhat like that (the average bowler isn't good) but even on it there are ten guys and a couple women worth watching. My Wednesday and travel league I can gain info on pretty much any of them. Some bowlers your correct I can't judge much off a two hander or someone that rockets the ball at 20 mph but most I can adjust what they do to what I do.
    I didn't mean to sound so harsh towards my fellow league bowlers...and it's possible my experiences are not typical of other areas/regions. I've been in 17 leagues since mid-2013...and with the exception of the two sport shot leagues...the make-up has been rather the same...mostly 110-170 average bowlers with about 10 bowlers in the 180-225 range...about 120-170 bowlers total in each league (not counting the two sport shot leagues). So, to ME, I see that as "the usual".

    It's also partially why I critiqued Tony's league the way I did. In fairness, I wasn't alone in that critique; but I've never been part of a league where the make-up was any different than what I described above. I'm used to about 30 teams...with about 20 of those teams having an anchor in the 180-225 range...but the vast, vast majority of the leagues are just casual bowlers. It's also why, when I post in the sticky'd thread about what bowling balls are used on a given night...it's never 4-6 players throwing new releases...it's mostly people throwing old urethane and resin balls...I doubt the majority are even fingertip drilled...mostly balls from back in the 90s or early 2000s.

    Joining a travel or scratch league would be great...but last time I joined a sport shot league...I wasn't ready for it AND I had to drive 45 minutes to get to the nearest center that offered one. And, until recently, I've not had the skill level to consider joining a scratch or travel league. Even now, most of the scratch leagues are during the morning/afternoon on weekdays...and the travel leagues are almost impossible to find/join unless you know someone already in the league and they invite you.

    Maybe things will be different once I move to the Midwest. There are a couple sport/PBA challenge leagues in the Des Moines area so I plan to join a couple house leagues there...see how things go...and if things go smoothly...maybe graduate from handicap house leagues to just bowling in the sport/challenge leagues.

    It's one of the main reasons I've discussed/recommended all centers in the United States using USBC Blue, White, or Red patterns. It would be nice to standardize conditions from region to region. The levels I recommended....while almost an impossible suggestion with significant negatives attached....would also fix the problem...of bowling with others of the same skill/experience level.

    It doesn't really 'bother' me bowling with primarily casual bowlers. I just compete against the higher average bowlers and measure my game against them...compete against them in sidepots and brackets, etc... But I am at a disadvantage that it isn't as easy (as it may be elsewhere) to get much data from other bowlers...when most of them (league bowlers) are throwing outdated equipment with sub-standard and outdated releases.
    In Bag: (: .) Motiv Trident Odyssey; (: .) Hammer Scorpion Sting; (: .) Pyramid Force Pearl; (: .) Brunswick Rhino Gold; (: .) Ebonite Maxim
    USBC#: 8259-59071; USBC Sanctioned Average = 185; Lifetime Average = 171;
    Ball Speed: 15.5mph; Rev. Rate: 240rpm || High Game (sanc.) = 300 (268); High Series (sanc.) = 725 (720); Clean Games: 181

    Smokey this is not 'Nam', this is bowling. There are rules. Proud two-time winner of a bowlingboards.com weekly ball give-away!

  9. #19
    Bowling Guru Amyers's Avatar
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    Well with the impending move it probably doesn't matter but there should be some higher level leagues without being sport shot or scratch. Two things I notice here there aren't many newbies around here and the ones that are came up through the youth leagues and are just as good or better than the adults. Not saying there aren't a few we had 2 newbies on one of the teams on Wednesday night.

    Probably has to do with this being a smaller area also and smaller leagues. Saturday has 34 but my travel league is 14 and Wednesday is 14 teams. There are only 3 centers within 35 minutes or so and 4 more an hour away or so. Everyone knows everyone so if your putting some money out as a center it doesn't take much for the word to get around. I wouldn't say that everyone has a modern release either some of these people I truly wonder how they can possibly throw the ball like they do and hit anything but every league has their share of those
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  10. #20
    Bowling God Aslan's Avatar
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    @Amyers

    I have a 'feeling' that alot of the recent disagreements on the site come from the fact that bowling is so different area to area. You wouldn't "think" so...given it's a round ball on a 60ft lane...gutters on both sides. Seems like the sport is pretty standardized.

    But...if you bowl in NY, Chicago, Detroit, St. Louis, Milwaukee, Kansas City...you might have a TON of choices of where to bowl and a good deal of options on leagues. Same thing the Southern California area. Then there are other areas, bigger cities...but less options than you would think. When we did the VBT...I remember being rather surprised how few centers were actually in the San Antonio TX area...given the size of the metropolitan area and how much it's growing. Same thing with places like Phoenix. Then, you have rural areas. I looked at where I used to go to college and there is literally ONE center near the town. Then there is another center an hour away...and another center 30 minutes further (1.5 hours further). My uncle used to drive 45 minutes one way to get to the nearest center.

    Then you have very "unique" places...like Detroit....where bowling used to be SO popular...that there are centers everywhere...despite a declining population. And you have a place like Vegas...a city in the middle of the desert...but lots of centers....with lots of lanes. And SoCal is rather unique as well. When I move to Des Moines....there aren't more than 5-7 centers within 45 minutes...the largest one has 24 lanes (many only have 12!)...each center seems to have 3-4 adult leagues. Currently, the smallest center in the area (SoCal) has 32 lanes (one center has 60) and most centers have two large adult leagues per night.

    With all the demographic/geographic differences...it's easy to see how in some places, the talented bowlers can be spread out over many centers and in some areas....the better bowlers are concentrated. Vegas, to an outsider, seems like a very unique experience because there doesn't seem to be a ton of interest by casual bowlers....but there are a lot of nice, big centers...because they serve the tourism industry (like most every other business in Vegas). At the same time...I bet there's no area in the country with a greater concentration of higher level bowlers....because it's a tour stop for the USBC Open and the PBA. If someone wants to be a pro bowler...and they can settle down anywhere in the country...I think they tend to gravitate towards either San Antonio (USBC training center) or Vegas...with most choosing Vegas. And it makes sense...because pro bowlers don't make the kind of money they used to...so why pay a ton of travel costs if you don't care where you settle down?
    In Bag: (: .) Motiv Trident Odyssey; (: .) Hammer Scorpion Sting; (: .) Pyramid Force Pearl; (: .) Brunswick Rhino Gold; (: .) Ebonite Maxim
    USBC#: 8259-59071; USBC Sanctioned Average = 185; Lifetime Average = 171;
    Ball Speed: 15.5mph; Rev. Rate: 240rpm || High Game (sanc.) = 300 (268); High Series (sanc.) = 725 (720); Clean Games: 181

    Smokey this is not 'Nam', this is bowling. There are rules. Proud two-time winner of a bowlingboards.com weekly ball give-away!

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