Aslan's Arsenal Progression Discussion Thread: (Part 2 of 6)

[Amyers]

@Amyers

I have a 'feeling' that alot of the recent disagreements on the site come from the fact that bowling is so different area to area. You wouldn't "think" so...given it's a round ball on a 60ft lane...gutters on both sides. Seems like the sport is pretty standardized.

But...if you bowl in NY, Chicago, Detroit, St. Louis, Milwaukee, Kansas City...you might have a TON of choices of where to bowl and a good deal of options on leagues. Same thing the Southern California area. Then there are other areas, bigger cities...but less options than you would think. When we did the VBT...I remember being rather surprised how few centers were actually in the San Antonio TX area...given the size of the metropolitan area and how much it's growing. Same thing with places like Phoenix. Then, you have rural areas. I looked at where I used to go to college and there is literally ONE center near the town. Then there is another center an hour away...and another center 30 minutes further (1.5 hours further). My uncle used to drive 45 minutes one way to get to the nearest center.

Then you have very "unique" places...like Detroit....where bowling used to be SO popular...that there are centers everywhere...despite a declining population. And you have a place like Vegas...a city in the middle of the desert...but lots of centers....with lots of lanes. And SoCal is rather unique as well. When I move to Des Moines....there aren't more than 5-7 centers within 45 minutes...the largest one has 24 lanes (many only have 12!)...each center seems to have 3-4 adult leagues. Currently, the smallest center in the area (SoCal) has 32 lanes (one center has 60) and most centers have two large adult leagues per night.

With all the demographic/geographic differences...it's easy to see how in some places, the talented bowlers can be spread out over many centers and in some areas....the better bowlers are concentrated. Vegas, to an outsider, seems like a very unique experience because there doesn't seem to be a ton of interest by casual bowlers....but there are a lot of nice, big centers...because they serve the tourism industry (like most every other business in Vegas). At the same time...I bet there's no area in the country with a greater concentration of higher level bowlers....because it's a tour stop for the USBC Open and the PBA. If someone wants to be a pro bowler...and they can settle down anywhere in the country...I think they tend to gravitate towards either San Antonio (USBC training center) or Vegas...with most choosing Vegas. And it makes sense...because pro bowlers don't make the kind of money they used to...so why pay a ton of travel costs if you don't care where you settle down?

I'd say you are correct about this. I've always known that our area is unique in a lot of ways. I lived in St. Louis for a while and even there attitudes about traveling our completely different. When I was in St. Louis I listened to our clients complain that an office 2 interstate exits from them was too far away. Here a 20 minute drive to a store you are interested in is considered normal.

In my area give me $1000 added and 2 weeks I'll have bowlers from all over the state. Give me $2000 and I'll have people from Louisville and Columbus 5 hours away with just a few facebook messages.

[Tony]

I didn't mean to sound so harsh towards my fellow league bowlers...and it's possible my experiences are not typical of other areas/regions. I've been in 17 leagues since mid-2013...and with the exception of the two sport shot leagues...the make-up has been rather the same...mostly 110-170 average bowlers with about 10 bowlers in the 180-225 range...about 120-170 bowlers total in each league (not counting the two sport shot leagues). So, to ME, I see that as "the usual".

It's also partially why I critiqued Tony's league the way I did. In fairness, I wasn't alone in that critique; but I've never been part of a league where the make-up was any different than what I described above. I'm used to about 30 teams...with about 20 of those teams having an anchor in the 180-225 range...but the vast, vast majority of the leagues are just casual bowlers. It's also why, when I post in the sticky'd thread about what bowling balls are used on a given night...it's never 4-6 players throwing new releases...it's mostly people throwing old urethane and resin balls...I doubt the majority are even fingertip drilled...mostly balls from back in the 90s or early 2000s.

Joining a travel or scratch league would be great...but last time I joined a sport shot league...I wasn't ready for it AND I had to drive 45 minutes to get to the nearest center that offered one. And, until recently, I've not had the skill level to consider joining a scratch or travel league. Even now, most of the scratch leagues are during the morning/afternoon on weekdays...and the travel leagues are almost impossible to find/join unless you know someone already in the league and they invite you.

Maybe things will be different once I move to the Midwest. There are a couple sport/PBA challenge leagues in the Des Moines area so I plan to join a couple house leagues there...see how things go...and if things go smoothly...maybe graduate from handicap house leagues to just bowling in the sport/challenge leagues.

It's one of the main reasons I've discussed/recommended all centers in the United States using USBC Blue, White, or Red patterns. It would be nice to standardize conditions from region to region. The levels I recommended....while almost an impossible suggestion with significant negatives attached....would also fix the problem...of bowling with others of the same skill/experience level.

It doesn't really 'bother' me bowling with primarily casual bowlers. I just compete against the higher average bowlers and measure my game against them...compete against them in sidepots and brackets, etc... But I am at a disadvantage that it isn't as easy (as it may be elsewhere) to get much data from other bowlers...when most of them (league bowlers) are throwing outdated equipment with sub-standard and outdated releases.

The thing is in being critical of other leagues you know nothing about, makes it appear you see yourself as superior to all other league bowlers nationwide, in your example you have people using outdated equipment, with conventional grips, and knowing nothing bowling in all leagues. Yes we have those type of leagues, they call them beer , pizza and wings leagues, non sanctioned and for 15 you get bowling plus beer and food.
The other leagues you will find lots of new equipment ( much newer than what you use in fact) and virtually all fingertip grip drilled balls. I only know of one guy who had a conventional grip drilled ball in the whole league. It's common to see several Code Black, Sure Lock, and Timeless on a pair of lanes and see mostly stuff in the new to 3 years old category. The average bowler in the league brings 3 balls.
So just keep in mind when you talk in generalities about specific things in places where you've never been the comments tend to look more foolish than informed.

Considering the fact that the local HS teams have dominated the state championships in the last ten years, last year we had the first, second and fifth place teams, we have had three different schools win the State tournament over the last 5 years. That should at least show that there is some bowling talent in the area, and it's not all easier lane conditions. BTW the guys that coach these teams are all in the same crappy league I'm in.

[Aslan]

@Tony

I see your point...but statistics are statistics. I'm not going to re-litigate the entire issue. If you were in some farm town in South Dakota...and everyone in the State had to bowl at one center because there weren't any other centers...your explanation would make more sense. But you're not in a rural area...there are TON of large population cities in that area...other centers in the same exact area have much lower averages and less honor scores...it just points to the logical conclusion that the center in question has easier conditions. I wasn't the only one that said it at the time you brought it up...I haven't harped on it over and over and over...yet you still bring it up in every thread as if you're waiting for everyone to acknowledge something.

Statistically speaking, it makes far GREATER sense that the center would be easier...than the argument that it just happens to be this rare instance of all the better bowlers showing up at one center...and not at any of the nearby ones...and it's just full of Hall of Famers and future Hall of Famers and everyone is nearly a pro...just some random chance...when there is literally no other example of that anywhere else in the country in places with equal population densities. That doesn't mean you're "wrong"...it just may be a statistical irregularity.

Like I said (three times now)...the only way to prove the statistics wrong would be to try other centers in the area...with lower center averages...and less honor scores...and average the same...and then you'll know I'm "full of it". Until then...it's just your opinion versus statistical evidence...and there's really no need to keep harping on it in every single thread...IMO.

You're correct...my metropolitan area is quite large...and there are lots of centers. That very well could account for why there is a lower "concentration" of talent at a given center. That makes absolute sense. Just like in the point Amyers brought up...if it's a rural center...or a center requiring people drive 45 minutes to bowl...you're going to probably see a higher concentration of talent.

And, like I've said 2-3 times now...I'll be able to test my own theories very soon...when I take my bowling game to a new region and see how leagues look in that new region. And like I've said nearly 100 times...until the USBC actually standardizes lane conditions from region to region...there is never going to be a 1-1 comparison. Right now...it's like if in some areas of the country they use 9ft basketball nets and other areas use 11ft basketball nets...doesn't mean someone scoring 100 points with a 9ft basketball net isn't good at basketball...it's just not possible to make a solid comparison without head-to-head competition in a neutral location.

If I had to say what region puts out the best bowlers...the only way to answer it is the USBC Open (neutral site, neutral conditions)...and based on the leaderboard it looks like Wisconsin, Michigan, Indiana, and Ohio seem to be the areas putting out the most winners. Other than that...hard to say.

[Aslan]

And...just to be fair to Tony...

I've been sort of "scouting" leagues in the area I'm moving to...trying to find a "good" handicap league. And I just recently looked at a scoresheet for one of the leagues Im looking at...and literally every single bowler on all but two teams...averages >177. I'd say half the league or more averages 220 or higher.

To me...that's INSANE! It's not a "scratch" league...it's just a handicap league. That seems crazy high to me. I think the lowest average in the ENTIRE LEAGUE...is 150.

So...it may be a learning experience when I get to an area...where maybe there just isn't much participation by lower average bowlers. Maybe the lanes aren't much easier at ALL...it's just that the bowling talent is either higher in that area...and/or there are less lower average bowlers. It'll be interesting to find out.

My "fear"...is that I'm going to join a league in some wood lanes house or something, where there's kind've a "groove" into the pocket...so that if I miss by 4-6 boards right...I still hit the pocket. I'm gonna HATE that! I don't like being rewarded for making 'poo' shots. But I also don't want to get in over my head....like the last time I joined a sport shot league and averaged 139...and if I didn't show up, the team got to use 150 for a vacant spot. There's no point in that.

So...statistics are one thing...but it DOES take actually bowling in different places and on different conditions to truly get a feel for these differences. I'm like most bowlers...I've really only bowled in one area...I don't really know what it's like to bowl in other areas (yet).

[Tony]

And...just to be fair to Tony...

I've been sort of "scouting" leagues in the area I'm moving to...trying to find a "good" handicap league. And I just recently looked at a scoresheet for one of the leagues Im looking at...and literally every single bowler on all but two teams...averages >177. I'd say half the league or more averages 220 or higher.

To me...that's INSANE! It's not a "scratch" league...it's just a handicap league. That seems crazy high to me. I think the lowest average in the ENTIRE LEAGUE...is 150.

So...it may be a learning experience when I get to an area...where maybe there just isn't much participation by lower average bowlers. Maybe the lanes aren't much easier at ALL...it's just that the bowling talent is either higher in that area...and/or there are less lower average bowlers. It'll be interesting to find out.

My "fear"...is that I'm going to join a league in some wood lanes house or something, where there's kind've a "groove" into the pocket...so that if I miss by 4-6 boards right...I still hit the pocket. I'm gonna HATE that! I don't like being rewarded for making 'poo' shots. But I also don't want to get in over my head....like the last time I joined a sport shot league and averaged 139...and if I didn't show up, the team got to use 150 for a vacant spot. There's no point in that.

So...statistics are one thing...but it DOES take actually bowling in different places and on different conditions to truly get a feel for these differences. I'm like most bowlers...I've really only bowled in one area...I don't really know what it's like to bowl in other areas (yet).

I'm not sure what TONS of large population cities is to you, the area I'm in has a main city population of 150,000 with 200,000 more considered part of the metro area.
I personally wouldn't call that large population, nor is it a town of 500 people, so in that case I'm not sure if you're actually looking at score sheets from the correct area.
Aside from that do lanes in your area have beer and pizza leagues ? We have tons of them, none are sanctioned and probably don't show up on your averages for the centers, keep in mind this is where many of the most casual league bowlers bowl, it sounds like those bowlers are intermixed into your regular leagues.
Consider how that accounts for a lot less low average bowlers in the USBC reported leagues totally skewing the number you are relying on to make your determination.
It should all be making sense now, the numbers don't lie, they just don't show the whole picture. The absence of the beer and pizza league bowlers who when I wander through have tons of people with 90 to 140 averages. In fact they kicked a team out of that league last year because they were too good, they had a 180, 2-190, 210 ave bowlers, they are now in my league.
For example on my league there are 20 teams, the beer and pizza league fills the rest of the house 42 lanes, so there are 4 times as many people in the beer and pizza league on that night , and not very many bowlers with high averages in the B&P league
There are more potential factors but that's a huge one that explains why the figures don't actually prove what you think they prove.
I can also tell you a reason there are more honor scores from one center vs another, look at number of games bowled, number of leagues, number of bowlers at that center. The one center is 42 lanes, and hosts several more leagues the next largest is 2-32, then 2 at 24, 1 at 16, 1 at 8.
So just remember before you decide that only the scenario you can see is the only correct one remember that unless you really know all the details, you might not want to profess only a very unlikely scenario could explain things.
For the league you're talking about with half the league at 220 did you look at whats offered for scratch leagues, there are a lot of area's where the scratch leagues suffer and close down leaving the good bowlers in handicap leagues.....
I'm not sure you should be too worried about a wood house being too easy, that's not very typical, and you won't find that many around anyway. FWIW the best way to scout the area is not going to be looking at USBC stat tables and score sheets, find a few guys who are local to the area and have bowled there for years, you'll be amazed how much they know!
If you want to get into a really interesting league that have some called WBWW
women bowling with wine, they get bottles of wine every week, talk about some serious high average bowlers !

[Aslan]

Aside from that do lanes in your area have beer and pizza leagues ? We have tons of them, none are sanctioned and probably don't show up on your averages for the centers, keep in mind this is where many of the most casual league bowlers bowl, it sounds like those bowlers are intermixed into your regular leagues.
Consider how that accounts for a lot less low average bowlers in the USBC reported leagues totally skewing the number you are relying on to make your determination.
It should all be making sense now, the numbers don't lie, they just don't show the whole picture. The absence of the beer and pizza league bowlers who when I wander through have tons of people with 90 to 140 averages.

Thats possible. There are a few sporadic non-sanctioned leagues and "fun leagues" in each center...but very few. Around here, leagues are very large with 150+ bowlers in each league. There are a handful of smaller leagues...mainly 90-140 bowlers...but they can usually only field about 6-8 teams. The first league I bowled in was a non-sanctioned "fun league"...but it had some higher average bowlers in it. I think people who bowled in that league were just "cheap" and preferred the $13 lineage to the $20+ of most sanctioned leagues in the area.

In fact they kicked a team out of that league last year because they were too good, they had a 180, 2-190, 210 ave bowlers, they are now in my league.

Most of the leagues here have average caps. There is one team I know of currently looking for a 140ish average bowler to fill a vacant spot because their team average is too high...and another team where a guy had to bowl with his opposite hand or else his team would have been above the cap.

Around here, folks tend to 'graduate' from handicap to scratch leagues when they get into the 220 average range. If there were more scratch leagues available in the evenings, I think many of the 200+ bowlers would participate. Unfortunately, there are very few...and the ones I know of all are during the morning/day on weekdays...making it difficult to compete in those leagues if you have a standard job and work schedule.

I'm not sure you should be too worried about a wood house being too easy, that's not very typical, and you won't find that many around anyway.

It's highly area dependent. Around here, I can't think of a center with less than 32 lanes...except in a college student union. When I was scouting lanes in the Midwest...only one center had 32 lanes...some had as few as 8...many had 12.

FWIW the best way to scout the area is not going to be looking at USBC stat tables and score sheets, find a few guys who are local to the area and have bowled there for years, you'll be amazed how much they know!

I have the same problem with that concept that I have with asking PSOs what ball to buy. Just about every bowler I've heard talk...believes:
A) Their center is the hardest.
B) There is a center in the area that sucks.

Most of the time, A and B aren't really based on anything tangible...just opinion. Many bowlers have a center they refuse to bowl in for one reason or another. Other bowlers think those same centers are the bee's knees...just depends on the person. All it takes is one bad experience...and suddenly "House X is *** and I'm never bowling there again!"

Instead, I plan to merge my selection system (based on numbers) and your suggestion (based on observations) by simply going and watching some of the leagues when I get there. I also took a look at the USBC Open results...and there are a couple bowlers in the area that performed well at the USBC Open in 2016 and 2017...they both seem to bowl at the same center...maybe there's some value in checking that center out as well. If a center was "easy"...I'd expect bowlers from that center that went to a tournament like the USBC Open to perform poorly. Good performance indicates the bowler(s) have talent. The problem is...those two bowlers have 230 averages at every center they bowl at...hard to differentiate with them.

There are certain centers I'll bypass...like smaller centers with a lot of non-sanctioned leagues or short season leagues...I'm just not a fan of centers that push for non-sanctioned leagues...I don't think it's good for the sport. And, I tend to avoid Bowlmor operated centers due to the questionable business ethics of Bowlmor in general.

And, it may just be trial and error.

Regardless, I just can't understand how a handicap league could have so many bowlers in the 220+ average range. Am I the only one that would consider that "boring"? I realize I'm in the extreme minority considering this topic...and many, many bowlers would rather just go out there and throw the ball wherever and get a 300-game every other week. Striking is FUN! I get that. But what's the point?

I'm not criticizing YOUR (Tony) league per se...God forbid I make that mistake ever again...but if I'm in a league...and I average 229...it's time for me to find a scratch league...find a PBA experience league...going to the USBC Open...and maybe even get my PBA card. Going in every Thursday night and rolling 290-267-256....with an occasional "bad night" of 205-267-193...I just don't see the point of that. At the point you start to lose count of how many 300 rings you have....I mean, you only have ten fingers....how many rings do you need? And what's the point of all those rings if they start become meaningless?

When I played paintball...it was hard. You had to use tactics...you had to be accurate. You were using pump guns with 45 round capacity. Nowadays...you have electronic guns firing at 36 rounds per second. If you have enough money to afford a case of paint per game...you're bound to hit someone if you put that much paint downfield. I guess I'm just hoping bowling doesn't come to that.

But, like I said...I'll find out soon enough...not with numbers or asking Bubba which house is his favorite and hearing which house has the best price on Coor's Light...but by actually seeing first hand.

[Tony]

Thats possible. There are a few sporadic non-sanctioned leagues and "fun leagues" in each center...but very few. Around here, leagues are very large with 150+ bowlers in each league. There are a handful of smaller leagues...mainly 90-140 bowlers...but they can usually only field about 6-8 teams. The first league I bowled in was a non-sanctioned "fun league"...but it had some higher average bowlers in it. I think people who bowled in that league were just "cheap" and preferred the $13 lineage to the $20+ of most sanctioned leagues in the area.


Most of the leagues here have average caps. There is one team I know of currently looking for a 140ish average bowler to fill a vacant spot because their team average is too high...and another team where a guy had to bowl with his opposite hand or else his team would have been above the cap.

Around here, folks tend to 'graduate' from handicap to scratch leagues when they get into the 220 average range. If there were more scratch leagues available in the evenings, I think many of the 200+ bowlers would participate. Unfortunately, there are very few...and the ones I know of all are during the morning/day on weekdays...making it difficult to compete in those leagues if you have a standard job and work schedule.


It's highly area dependent. Around here, I can't think of a center with less than 32 lanes...except in a college student union. When I was scouting lanes in the Midwest...only one center had 32 lanes...some had as few as 8...many had 12.


I have the same problem with that concept that I have with asking PSOs what ball to buy. Just about every bowler I've heard talk...believes:
A) Their center is the hardest.
B) There is a center in the area that sucks.

Most of the time, A and B aren't really based on anything tangible...just opinion. Many bowlers have a center they refuse to bowl in for one reason or another. Other bowlers think those same centers are the bee's knees...just depends on the person. All it takes is one bad experience...and suddenly "House X is *** and I'm never bowling there again!"

Instead, I plan to merge my selection system (based on numbers) and your suggestion (based on observations) by simply going and watching some of the leagues when I get there. I also took a look at the USBC Open results...and there are a couple bowlers in the area that performed well at the USBC Open in 2016 and 2017...they both seem to bowl at the same center...maybe there's some value in checking that center out as well. If a center was "easy"...I'd expect bowlers from that center that went to a tournament like the USBC Open to perform poorly. Good performance indicates the bowler(s) have talent. The problem is...those two bowlers have 230 averages at every center they bowl at...hard to differentiate with them.

There are certain centers I'll bypass...like smaller centers with a lot of non-sanctioned leagues or short season leagues...I'm just not a fan of centers that push for non-sanctioned leagues...I don't think it's good for the sport. And, I tend to avoid Bowlmor operated centers due to the questionable business ethics of Bowlmor in general.

And, it may just be trial and error.

Regardless, I just can't understand how a handicap league could have so many bowlers in the 220+ average range. Am I the only one that would consider that "boring"? I realize I'm in the extreme minority considering this topic...and many, many bowlers would rather just go out there and throw the ball wherever and get a 300-game every other week. Striking is FUN! I get that. But what's the point?

I'm not criticizing YOUR (Tony) league per se...God forbid I make that mistake ever again...but if I'm in a league...and I average 229...it's time for me to find a scratch league...find a PBA experience league...going to the USBC Open...and maybe even get my PBA card. Going in every Thursday night and rolling 290-267-256....with an occasional "bad night" of 205-267-193...I just don't see the point of that. At the point you start to lose count of how many 300 rings you have....I mean, you only have ten fingers....how many rings do you need? And what's the point of all those rings if they start become meaningless?

When I played paintball...it was hard. You had to use tactics...you had to be accurate. You were using pump guns with 45 round capacity. Nowadays...you have electronic guns firing at 36 rounds per second. If you have enough money to afford a case of paint per game...you're bound to hit someone if you put that much paint downfield. I guess I'm just hoping bowling doesn't come to that.

But, like I said...I'll find out soon enough...not with numbers or asking Bubba which house is his favorite and hearing which house has the best price on Coor's Light...but by actually seeing first hand.

One thing to consider about averaging 229, and what you would do .....I know a few of the guys who do average in that range, every single one of them loves to bowl, they all bowl in scratch leagues, but most of them are in 3 to 6 different leagues at different houses, and there are only a few evening scratch leagues, so by default if they want to be in a bunch of leagues they will have to be in handicap leagues as well.

The one fellow that led our league in 300 games has well over 100, he still gets pretty excited to get them, to quote him " It never gets old, I love it "

[Amyers]

And...just to be fair to Tony...

I've been sort of "scouting" leagues in the area I'm moving to...trying to find a "good" handicap league. And I just recently looked at a scoresheet for one of the leagues Im looking at...and literally every single bowler on all but two teams...averages >177. I'd say half the league or more averages 220 or higher.

To me...that's INSANE! It's not a "scratch" league...it's just a handicap league. That seems crazy high to me. I think the lowest average in the ENTIRE LEAGUE...is 150.

So...it may be a learning experience when I get to an area...where maybe there just isn't much participation by lower average bowlers. Maybe the lanes aren't much easier at ALL...it's just that the bowling talent is either higher in that area...and/or there are less lower average bowlers. It'll be interesting to find out.

My "fear"...is that I'm going to join a league in some wood lanes house or something, where there's kind've a "groove" into the pocket...so that if I miss by 4-6 boards right...I still hit the pocket. I'm gonna HATE that! I don't like being rewarded for making 'poo' shots. But I also don't want to get in over my head....like the last time I joined a sport shot league and averaged 139...and if I didn't show up, the team got to use 150 for a vacant spot. There's no point in that.

So...statistics are one thing...but it DOES take actually bowling in different places and on different conditions to truly get a feel for these differences. I'm like most bowlers...I've really only bowled in one area...I don't really know what it's like to bowl in other areas (yet).

Scratch leagues don't exist everywhere my travel league is scratch and I am one of the lower averages in it at 180 something their is a scratch league in Huntington about 45 miles from me that I've never bowled in (synthetic approaches that are always sticky so I don't even go in the door) that's it as far as scratch goes. There are three high money high level handicap leagues in the area where you'll find mostly high average bowlers the rest are a mix. One thing you might help you locate what your looking for check out the prize payouts. If they tend to be more even it's likely not a high level league more top heavy it's likely higher average bowlers.