Aslan's Arsenal Progression Discussion Thread: (Part 3 of 6)
I'd like to talk about "How to Create a Bowling Ball Arsenal/Progression".
This will be a Six Part discussion focusing on these topics one at a time:
1) Coverstock (solid, hybrid, pearl)
2) PerfectScale (and other hook measurement tools)
3) Surface
4) Core Symmetry
5) Differential
6) RG
I tried to start with the "simplest" and work towards the more complex.
ASSUMPTIONS
1) Assume you're putting together a 4-5 ball arsenal to allow you to address lane transitions and to allow you versatility to play multiple centers/conditions.
So, to start, what are YOUR THOUGHTS regarding this strategy concerning SURFACE:
Ball #1 (first ball out of bag, fresh conditions, longer patterns, sport patterns, etc...)
Matte or Sanded 360-2000
Ball #2 ("go to ball", ball down option from Ball #1, regular ball, THS ball, etc...)
1000-2000 Sanded
Ball #3 (slightly stronger ball than ball #2 to combat "carrydown", 3rd ball out of the bag, "skid/flip" ball, etc...)
500 (polished)
Ball #4 (dry lane ball, wood lane ball, practice ball, etc...)
2000-4500 (polished)
GUIDELINES
1) Let's try NOT to jump ahead to the other topics. Obviously, bowling balls are complex because there are SO many factors that affect ball movement....but if we can't limit ourselves to just one topic at a time...the dicsucssion will quickly dissolve into generalities about arsenals.
Now...this is probably going to be my LEAST favorite topic...but having this discussion and leaving off SURFACE would be pointless given the many studies done that confirm SURFACE is the #1 impact on ball movement...both in terms of overall hook and where (soon/later) on the lanes the ball actually hooks.
To be honest...just to provide some initial thoughts...I'm not sure it matters much what the surface is for Ball #1 or Ball #2 when we're talking about a THS. If you have even an "average" rev rate/release...I don't really know how someone can use a sanded/matte ball with alot of surface and still be able to carry IF you're playing the track area +/- 2 boards. "Maybe" if you move inside of 15 to start...but I don't a lot of experience starting in that area. I DEFINITELY don't see how someone can start out playing up and in (1-7 boards) with sanded/matte equipment...even with a really high RG. I use a Track 300A as my Ball #4...and it has an RG of 2.58...and a weak, polished cover....and I can't play outside of 10...even with my below average rev rate.
HOWEVER...I am fairly married to the idea that if you are looking for a skid/flip ball...or a dry lane ball...that you almost HAVE TO use a polished ball (I'd also specify a PEARL...not to go back to that topic). Does anyone see a point to using a surfaced ball when you're trying to obtain a skid/flip reaction and/or when playing on drier/wood lanes?
What surfaces do you have on YOUR equipment? How often do you "tweak" them? How many games do you bowl before resurfacing? Do you have your own spinner or do you take the balls to the PSO each time?
NOTES:
- And, we're talking about a THS. Sport conditions...totally different animal. If anyone has experience on sport conditions...maybe you can provide some input. I found that even on shorter sport patterns...polished/high RG equipment sometimes didn't work...because the patterns were shorter...but the oil volume was much heavier or blocked.
- For those reading this who rely a LOT on surface...on a THS....and can't figure out why I wouldn't recommend it; you have to understand the concept of a ball "losing energy". I'm sure many of the folks posting here already grasp that concept...some better than myself...but (as someone who really struggled with the concept early on) if you don't understand the concept...a SURFACE discussion is probably going to be confusing.
In Bag: (: .) Motiv Trident Odyssey; (: .) Hammer Scorpion Sting; (: .) Brunswick Endeavor; (: .) Radical Outer Limits Pearl; (: .) Ebonite Maxim
USBC#: 8259-59071; USBC Sanctioned Average = 186; Lifetime Average = 171;
Ball Speed: 14.4mph; Rev. Rate: 240rpm || High Game (sanc.) = 300 (268); High Series (sanc.) = 725 (720); Clean Games: 181
Smokey this is not 'Nam', this is bowling. There are rules. Proud two-time winner of a bowlingboards.com weekly ball give-away!
Ball #1: Whatever surface you like and a willingness to change it as required for a particular lane condition (or weather condition).
Ball #2: Whatever surface you like and a willingness to change it as required for a particular lane condition (or weather condition).
Ball #3 - Ball #8,437,854: SAME, SAME, SAME!
This part of the thread is ridiculous beyond belief!
Comments from previous Thread:
BOWL1820:
Best option on surfaces is to Adjust surface textures as needed during practice/warmup.
ASLAN:
Now I know people talk about changing the surface (so why is surface a factor in the calculation?). And with symmetric core balls I think thats a more successful proposition. But from my limited experience with assymetric core balls (all 3 above are assymetric cores), I've found that adding surface tends to negate the advantages of an assymetric core to at least a degree. If an assymetric core allows a ball to rev up and release energy in a more angular fashion (among other things)...then adding a ton of surface means you're going to try to get it to make that move sooner...but then it doesn't save up as much energy. You could end up throwing a good ball only to have it die out prematurely. I think (theory) thats less of a problem with a symmetric core designed for a smooth arc...sanding it just makes it start the arc sooner. Thats all theory/talking points at this point though.
Another important thing to note...for some of the readers that may not know the rule...one of the limitations of surface changes...is that you cannot legally surface a ball once you've thrown your first shot. This is a big reason why I'm not a fan of buying a bunch of balls with random specs...and using surface changes to separate them from one another. If the lanes start transitioning...and you feel you need a ball with a different surface...it's not an option.
Last edited by Aslan; 05-06-2017 at 09:37 PM.
Rob....AGAIN...and I added it to the second post I made....you CANNOT....BY RULE...change the surface once you've thrown your first shot. Remember, we're talking about putting an arsenal together. I TOTALLY agree with you on this! Considering surface when SELECTING an arsenal is kind've idiotic....because surface is something that can be changed once you have the balls drilled and are using them. It's why I sort of left it out of the discussion the first time around.Originally Posted by RobLV1
I chose to ADD it this time...because I got a bunch of "guff" initially by people that (and rightfully so) pointed out that surface should be considered because surface is the #1 impact on ball motion.
But, I "think" we agree on this subject...considering surface when selecting an arsenal is rather "pointless"...because you can change it at anytime (if you have the equipment to do so and/or the disposable income to have it changed).
To play Devil's Advocate (Rob's least favorite of my expressions...because he hates Devil's advocates)...
1) If your strategy is to re-surface to account for things you see during league play...USBC rules forbid those changes. So while we can resurface any ball to do anything...we can only do it PRIOR to throwing the first ball.
2) Regarding my question, do you or have you seen a circumstance...where you would want to add surface to a ball when you are trying to create a skid/flip or highly angular reaction down lane? Or...on very dry shots or wood lanes....do you see any value in adding surface to your equipment (other than reducing surface and polishing)?
I didn't even want to talk about SURFACE...because to be it's more of a maintenance item...something you tweak...especially with balls #1 and #2...I feel (and I think you agree) that it's rather inconsequential when selecting a ball. I currently have it in my selection system (that I'm working on/creating)...but I really only concern myself with it regarding Ball #3 and Ball #4....because I see no point in sanding a ball and trying to make it "skid/flip" or sanding a ball to play on drier or wood conditions. It "seems" counter-productive to do that...but I'm willing to hear other people's thoughts on the matter.
It's against the rules to alter the ball surface once competition has begun and competition begins when "anyone" throws the first ball for score.
Not when you've thrown your first shot.
Right handed Stroker, high track ,about 13 degree axis tilt. PAP is located 5 9/16” over 1 3/4” up.Speed ave. about 14 mph at the pins. Medium rev’s.High Game 300, High series 798
"Talent without training is nothing." Luke Skywalker
I fail to see why you keep mentioning sanding a ball, to enable a skid/flip reaction, are you looking for someone to say yeah, I sanded my ball to make it skid.....
I'm not even sure you're going to find many people who think they can change the surface of a ball during the game, think about this way, the people that are doing their own surface changes and have invested in pads, and or ball spinner and unlikely to be unaware of the rule that doesn't allow surface changes once competition has begun.
The one who had the rule wrong was you, once the first person in your league throws a ball that counts for score, you can't adjust the ball.
I don't see the surface of the ball being a deciding factor, in what ball to purchase, however with all the balls/ surfaces offered it is easier if you get a ball with the surface you are planning to use as the OOB finish, if that's a combination offered, knowing if it's not exactly what you want you can change it.
Last edited by Tony; 05-07-2017 at 12:49 AM.
Surface is the most important factor in ball reaction for the simple reason that it can be changed. You keep referring to the fact that you can't change surface during competition, but how about before competition? My own personal experience is that different bowling centers favor more or less surface. In my own case, I tend to use polish for balls at Red Rock, surface on balls for SunCoast and Gold Coast, polish on the low side at Southpoint, and surface on the high side at South Point. Add to this knowledge of particular pairs of lanes (end pairs are notoriously different than anything else in the house), and weather conditions; high humidity often results in over/under conditions where you have to make a conscious decision whether to play the wet or the dry, and since I usually choose to play the wet, I add surface when it gets humid.
Choosing not to change the surface to maintain some mythical progression is ignoring the most important factor in ball reaction... the one thing that can be easily changed.
One consideration I would like to mention that is valid for a large number of bowlers, is that in many cases they lack the time / desire or knowledge to change surface's for balls from, place to place, day to day, preferring to leave an OOB finish or adjust a surface to fit their overall need, and then leave it with that finish over a period of time.
While it's certainly possible to learn and make the changes and if done well will yield the best possible results, we should also consider options that don't require that level of commitment to ball maintenance.
There are a lot of bowlers who would rather buy an extra ball or two than mess with making surface adjustments constantly to adjust to playing condition.
Even with only 10 minutes of warm up, that is more than enough time for making surface adjustments to better match the surface up to the conditions. It only takes a minute or two scuff up a ball.the time
Polishing would be more time consuming, that's why your kind of better off having your ball being a little shiny coming in the door.
Lack of desire? Sure a lot of players just don't want to be bothered with something else they have to fiddle with. Though lack of knowledge can play into that, because they don't understand the importance of it.desire
or yes they just don't have that level of commitment to the game. A lot of league bowlers are doing good just to wipe the ball off when they pull it out of the bag and it's all sweating with oil from sitting in the car since last week.
Sure lack of knowledge can be a factor, Not knowing what to do and when to do it. Plus fear, A lot of new players are afraid they'll damage the ball in some way, until they learn more about making surface changes.knowledge to change surface's for balls from, place to place, day to day,
Hmm, this is part of the players lack of knowledge. In not understanding how quickly surfaces change with use.preferring to leave an OOB finish or adjust a surface to fit their overall need, and then leave it with that finish over a period of time.
Admittedly if a player only bowls once a week, They could get by without changing surfaces somewhat. Depending on the conditions (If your on dry a lot, then wear will happen much faster than on oil.) and if they are satisfied with the result.
If the player has the money to do that, then that's is a option. Though having several balls doesn't eliminate the need for surface adjustments.While it's certainly possible to learn and make the changes and if done well will yield the best possible results, we should also consider options that don't require that level of commitment to ball maintenance.
There are a lot of bowlers who would rather buy an extra ball or two than mess with making surface adjustments constantly to adjust to playing condition.
Ultimately it is up to the player, to decide if and when to make surface adjustments. An If they are happy with their balls resulting performance, resultant of that decision.
Last edited by bowl1820; 05-07-2017 at 04:01 PM.
Right handed Stroker, high track ,about 13 degree axis tilt. PAP is located 5 9/16” over 1 3/4” up.Speed ave. about 14 mph at the pins. Medium rev’s.High Game 300, High series 798
"Talent without training is nothing." Luke Skywalker
I understand the points you make, and they are all valid, however I look back on years and years of league bowling and I can honestly say I've only seen a handful of times where someone was scuffing up a ball during practice, and a few of those times it was me doing it. It just doesn't seem to be a very typical thing to see.
All in all I see many more guys that have adjusted the surface or had the PSO do it to make the ball do what they want, and leave it that way. Of course bowlers on more challenging patterns might be more likely to make changes in practice but that's a much smaller percentage of the players.
I'm not saying it's the preferred way to go, just that in my observation it's not typical to see surface changes being done in practice, so one of the aspects of building an arsenal with that in mind might differ slightly from the ideal, but since it appears to be a common condition it's probably worth inclusion in the discussion or directive depending upon how the thread goes.
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