Carrydown is not a factor in modern bowling!

[RobLV1]

Thank you Bowl1820 for pointing this out. When I first submitted my article to BTM, I went round and round with the Editor. This ended up being the point of divergence in our personal views which is why the "disclaimer" was added. The fact that bowling centers rarely do a decent job in cleaning the back ends sufficiently is a whole other topic from that of balls carrying oil down the lane off of a fresh pattern.

[Amyers]

Warm-Up:
Take 2 shots on each lane. Line seems appropriate...3 strikes, one miss right that left a 10-pin.

Ok your about the same age as me maybe in a little better shape 3-5 balls does not have me throwing at my full speed and rev rate maybe for you it does.

Starting Line: Laydown (foul line) = 15. Target (arrows) = 11. Breakpoint (far tracers) = 8-10.

Game 1:
9 /, 7 2, 9 /. Started out with Reax Pearl, hitting target but missing right. Assumed carrydown or my line was off. Moved 1:2 (eyes:feet) RIGHT on each lane.
X, X, X, X, X, 8 /, 7 / 7. Pulled shot in 9th frame. Missed right in 10th frame both times.

First off even if you believe in carry down it can't be that quick, odds are good your speed increased as you continued to warm up. Second if your moving right make 1-1 moves not 1-2. Also if you moved 1-2 and your break point is 6.5-8.5 it's not still 8-10.

Game 2:
6 /. Made good shot, but left a 2-4-5-8 bucket. Assumed line was breaking down. Decided to ball DOWN to Innovate. Moved 1:2 RIGHT*.
Laydown = 13. Target = 10. Breakpoint = 8-10.

Ok now assuming you may no other moves you balled down and moved another 1.5 boards at the break point right which would have moved your break point to 5-7 at this point

9 /. Left a 4-pin. Moved LEFT 1:1.

Moves left should be at a 2-1 ratio to keep the break point constant. break point is now 6-8

Laydown = 14. Target = 11. Breakpoint = 9-11.
8 1, 6 /, X, X, 5 3, X. Last two frames went through the nose. Moved 1:2 LEFT on both lanes.

Ok so a typical move here break point would still be 6-8

Laydown = 13. Target = 12. Breakpoint = 9-11.
X, 6 /. Left 2-4-5-8 bucket on fill ball in 10th frame on good shot. Assume CARRYDOWN. Ball UP to Scandal Pearl. Stay on present line.

Game 3:
X, X, 6 2, X, 7 /, 9 -, X, 8 /, X, X 7 -. Non-strikes were bad shots; one miss right (6 2) and 3 pulled shots. The only pocket non-strike was the 9 - which was a 7-pin.

I tried to use a random data set from actual league play where I averaged "about" my present average and used all three of the usual balls I would progress through.

One of the biggest "QUESTIONS" I have about the theory of "no carrydown"...is that I have had a great deal of success balling UP to the Scandal Pearl in the 3rd game. IF there is no carrydown...balling UP, and staying in the same place...should be devastating or at the least require me to make some significant moves left. Yet, that's usually not the case. Of matter of fact, recent successes aside, the balling DOWN to the Innovate has been the least successful step in the process...WHICH...if the non-carrydown theory is correct...SHOULD be the most successful step....because the lanes ARE drying out...and the less aggressive option is going to be a success.

After reading the article (well-written by the way), there's really no way staying in the same place and balling UP should ever work. Correct?

Well your walking differently to the line after your moves or you really have no clue where the ball is at the tracers as I've show here your break point would be nowhere near where you say it is if you made the adjustments your claiming to have made considering a consistent walk. Best guess here on an average night as you think your adjusting what your actually doing is making your line tighter to the point that instead of throwing the ball right and allowing it to hook back to the pocket you reach a tipping point where your actually throwing the ball left into the higher concentrations of oil. You think the ball is burning up but as you ball down to your weaker ball it gets worse and worse first the carry goes then you start missing the pocket and call it carry down so you switch to a stronger ball and miracle it starts to react because it can get a bite into the heavier oil your throwing it into.

I'm not sure where you came up with making the unusual adjustments from. 1-1 right is which moves your break point 1 board right is standard. 2-1 left to keep the same break point is the typical move left. if the break point is working you don't change it you simply move 2-1 left during the night. With the adjustments you described you basically had the ball all over the lane at 40 feet down before even allowing for miss room.

[bowl1820]

I spend way to much time in bowling alleys so I'm usually there when the lanes are oiled. In one house I bowled at the lane machine went all the way to the end and then they brought a lane mop out and cleaned the backend again one of the higher scoring houses I've bowled in. Usually I see some mixture of the machine not go to the backend at all or only once and no moping. I have seen the machine run twice on the backends but it's rare anywhere I bowl.

Here a few times we were having a lot of out of range calls, because of pins sliding on the deck which was do to carrydown.

So they had to pretreat the pindecks before the lane machine made it's pass spraying it with something like maybe one of the deck sprays or just a straight cleaner IDK which.

Given if there's enough oil on the deck for pins to slide, (I don't remember how the lanes played those times) but imagine how much oil there must have been past the end of the pattern.

Reading Kegels info in their FAQ's they talk about how to reduce carrydown if players ball reaction is weak after a game and a half.

"Question: Ball reaction is weak after a game and a half. How do I reduce my carry down?

Answer: Typically the applied oil distance forward is too far creating too much conditioner towards the end of the oil pattern. Reduce the applied distance of conditioner and add to the reverse to prevent the loss of durability."

That right there would seem to imply that enough oil can get carried down to affect ball motion (Given how the pattern was set up).

Just to note I'm not saying Coach Slowinski or Rob are wrong, I myself think today depletion is more of a concern than carrydown is.

But I won't dismiss someones else's concerns about the possibility of them having carrydown out of hand either (I'm not saying Rob or Joe do either), Because I'm not bowling where they are and seeing what they see.


Something to think about:

According to what Joe wrote about oil depletion and ball reaction, he said " oil depletion is the culprit for ball motion change. As oil is depleted, more friction is encountered. This additional friction causes the ball to hook earlier. In other words, the core stands up sooner. This reduces the axis rotation sooner, weakening the back end reaction."

Okay if a balls reaction has been weakened by depletion by the time it reaches the backend, could the carrydown small as it is have a further affect on the balls motion?

While a ball working at a more optimum level might not be affected by only a few units of oil, one working a lower level might be affected.


The main thing I believe is bowlers have to really watch their ball motion and learn tell the difference between if it's depletion or actual carrydown. It's hard, they look very similar I can't say I'm good at it.

[RobLV1]

It's virtually impossible to see the difference between carry down and burn without changing balls (ball up for carry down, ball down for burn). Being that even the most stubborn holdouts to the idea that carry down is not an issue will agree that MOST of the time what we see is oil depletion rather than carry down, why is it so tough to look at the situation logically: if it's usually oil depletion, then why not adjust for it first and be successful MOST of the time rather than SOME of the time?

[Aslan]

Ok your about the same age as me maybe in a little better shape 3-5 balls does not have me throwing at my full speed and rev rate maybe for you it does.

Seven players...5-15 minutes of practice taking turns...there is only so much warm-up time available. Sometimes I get lucky and there is 15 minutes and I'm one of only 2 bowlers warming up...but there are also nights I get there late...trying to get my shoes on...get my equipment ready...and I don't even get a warm-up...especially when subbing...where you get asked to sub after the team realizes 1-2 players aren't showing up.

Realize...I'm not saying you're wrong...but bowling advice, in order to be useful, has to be applicable to what a bowler is going to see on league night. IDEALLY...we could talk about all kinds of things related to practice, balls, conditions...but if you show up on league night with 2 balls, get 2 practice shots on each lane, and are bowling on lanes that get the backends cleaned twice a month...whats the point? It's "correct" advice...but non-applicable to 92% of bowlers.

First off even if you believe in carry down it can't be that quick, odds are good your speed increased as you continued to warm up.

I've had a PBA pro tell me different. The way I look at it is, if you believe "depletion" (burn) can occur during warm-up (which I think RobM said was possible in his article)...then carrydown probably can as well.

Second, if you're moving right, make 1-1 moves not 1-2. Also if you moved 1-2 and your break point is 6.5-8.5 it's not still 8-10.

If I was at a breakpoint of 9...and I move 1:2 right...now I'm at a breakpoint of 8, but with a slightly tighter line. No?

Ok now assuming you made no other moves you balled down and moved another 1.5 boards at the break point right which would have moved your break point to 5-7 at this point

Again, another 1:2 right now moves the breakpoint target to 7...and further straightens out the line. And that move was ONLY to account for the surface issues on the Innovate which is a ball that has been going much longer...not as smooth a transition from the Reax Pearl at 4000.

Moves left should be at a 2-1 ratio to keep the break point constant. break point is now 6-8

A 4-pin, 4-9, or 9-pin is ALWAYS a 1:1 left. Again, PBA pro-confirmed.

The breakpoint would now move back to 8...same straighter line.

Ok so a typical move here break point would still be 6-8

Now, with the 1:2 left...the breakpoint is back to 9...adding a little more angle back into the shot.

Best guess here on an average night as you think your adjusting what your actually doing is making your line tighter to the point that instead of throwing the ball right and allowing it to hook back to the pocket you reach a tipping point where your actually throwing the ball left into the higher concentrations of oil.

In that example...not possible. There is no such thing as "higher concentrations of oil" anywhere I've bowled except Vegas. And in Vegas...I still was hooking into the pocket...just more of an "up and in" shot between 1st and 2nd arrows...versus between 2nd and 3rd arrows. The ONLY time I've ever had to throw left (direction) at the pocket (versus hooking) is if we're talking about carrydown from open/cosmic/ glow bowling where the lanes just have essentially oil smeared all the way down the lane through the backends...not something I've encountered in league play.

I'm not sure where you came up with making the unusual adjustments from. 1-1 right is which moves your break point 1 board right is standard. 2-1 left to keep the same break point is the typical move left. if the break point is working you don't change it you simply move 2-1 left during the night. With the adjustments you described you basically had the ball all over the lane at 40 feet down before even allowing for miss room.

I've seen and heard of ALL kinds of moves right and left. Like I said, the moves and adjustments I tend to make are based on two factors:
1) The adjustments I was taught by Missy Parkin. She actually has an adjustment spreadsheet/worksheet that gives you lateral moves based on certain leaves. It's GREATLY helped in my adjustments. Before being taught about the adjustments I SHOULD make...I was all over the place trying to adjust.

2) I sometimes make small moves...half board boves....1:1s right...vertical targeting chagnes...little things to help depending on well the ball is hitting the pocket...even I'm technically striking. These aren't moves that have been "taught"...these are moves that I'm trying to perfect and are based on actual experience and stuff I've read. Suzie Minshew's article in BTM actually introduced me to the concept of vertical targeting changes.

[RobLV1]

Please read my last post. Even if carry down is a factor, which I firmly believe it is not, then it is so rarely a factor that it is better off ignored anyway. I hope you watched the PBA Match Play Championships that concluded yesterday to see just how fast a line dries up: two shots and move in!

[imagonman]

Rob M. do you have a link that we can use to read the entire article you posted @ BTM or do we need a subscription to read it? Thanks as always for your well thought out articles and website.

[Aslan]

It's virtually impossible to see the difference between carry down and burn without changing balls (ball up for carry down, ball down for burn).

This is probably the toughest thing to grasp concerning bowling.

A miss left is either a pulled shot or the line is drying up and your ball is hooking too early...or maybe you got a little more hand in the ball.

BUT...a miss right could be:
1) Depletion
2) Carrydown
3) Your angle is too extreme
4) You didn't get enough hand in the ball.
5) Your speed was slightly high.

And like Rob says...it is VERY difficult to tell...even for advanced bowlers...which of those is the culprit.

Being that even the most stubborn holdouts to the idea that carry down is not an issue will agree that MOST of the time what we see is oil depletion rather than carry down, why is it so tough to look at the situation logically: if it's usually oil depletion, then why not adjust for it first and be successful MOST of the time rather than SOME of the time?

For me personally...it's a bit different scenario due to my arsenal and how I play the lanes...but one problem I run into when I start to move in...trying to stay in the oil and away from the depletion...is my angle gets to severe. 1:1, 1:2, 2:3 moves...pretty soon I'm trying to play a line that I just can't play.

OR...I try to ball down...I keep missing right...I ball down again...keep missing right...pretty soon I'm midway through the night before I realize, "Oh, it wasn't depletion...my line was off or it was carrydown, etc..." Remember, on league night, you're playing on two lanes...so it takes two frames sometimes just to figure something out and then another 2 frames to see if that change worked. One miss and guess at how to fix it costs you 4 frames...almost half a game!

[bowl1820]

This is probably the toughest thing to grasp concerning bowling.

You might want to read Coach J. Merrill's reply to my thread "Carrydown or Depletion? What to look for" on bowlingchat.

It's a very thorough and easy to understand reply on the subject.

http://forum.bowlingchat.net/viewtop...101836#p101836

[RobLV1]

Rob M. do you have a link that we can use to read the entire article you posted @ BTM or do we need a subscription to read it? Thanks as always for your well thought out articles and website.

You'll need to get a subscription, but the last time I looked, it is only $37 a year! IMHO, that's a very small price to pay to get access to more valuable information about bowling that's available anywhere else.