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Thread: Carrydown is not a factor in modern bowling!

  1. #21

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    Aslan: Your ability to overthink things boggles the mind! If you throw a shot and still can't tell if you threw it too hard or missed it at the bottom, then what's the difference if it's carry down or burn? You always seem to have an excuse as to why things don't apply to you because of your arsenal, your release, or the color of your hair! The bottom line is that you hit the nail on the head when you said you find yourself playing a line that is too uncomfortable for you, and the only cure for that is to practice it until it is comfortable. Of course, as long as you insist on evaluating your practice sessions by your score, you can't do this. Let the score go and work on expanding your comfort zone. Once you do that, I don't think it will really make any difference to you whether you are missing because of carry down or oil depletion. Rant over!

  2. #22
    Bowling Guru Amyers's Avatar
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    Seven players...5-15 minutes of practice taking turns...there is only so much warm-up time available. Sometimes I get lucky and there is 15 minutes and I'm one of only 2 bowlers warming up...but there are also nights I get there late...trying to get my shoes on...get my equipment ready...and I don't even get a warm-up...especially when subbing...where you get asked to sub after the team realizes 1-2 players aren't showing up.

    Realize...I'm not saying you're wrong...but bowling advice, in order to be useful, has to be applicable to what a bowler is going to see on league night. IDEALLY...we could talk about all kinds of things related to practice, balls, conditions...but if you show up on league night with 2 balls, get 2 practice shots on each lane, and are bowling on lanes that get the backends cleaned twice a month...whats the point? It's "correct" advice...but non-applicable to 92% of bowlers.
    I'll give you that in subbing this maybe outside of your control but I still bowl a lot of my leagues that are 5 man teams and they are higher end leagues so everyone is taking practice shots and still get 3 shots in on each lane in 10 minutes. Some of it maybe outside of your control but you have to ask did I arrive early get my drinks have my shoes on and ball on the rack basically everything I need completed before practice starts? My main point really wasn't that you weren't trying to warm up just that may have been the reason for the need to make the initial move. Mines the opposite I find I need to move further in quickly if I don't get warmed up good as I tend to be getting around the ball better on ball 8 than I was on ball 4

    If I was at a breakpoint of 9...and I move 1:2 right...now I'm at a breakpoint of 8, but with a slightly tighter line. No?
    Lines don't magically tighten without moving the break point moving your feet 1 board without changing your target is a 1/2 board adjustment down the lane. Yes the line is tighter but it's tighter by moving the break point right in this instance by an additional 1/2 board thus 8.5. A 2 boards with the feet and 1 with the eyes move right would move your break point by 1.5 boards to the right.

    Again, another 1:2 right now moves the breakpoint target to 7...and further straightens out the line. And that move was ONLY to account for the surface issues on the Innovate which is a ball that has been going much longer...not as smooth a transition from the Reax Pearl at 4000.
    You are correct this break point is now at 7 but you started out with a pretty flat line to begin with even on your initial line there is no real movement to the right of the ball it's a pretty straight line down the lane you've now moved your eyes 2 boards right and your feet 4 boards right this becomes important read on.

    In that example...not possible. There is no such thing as "higher concentrations of oil" anywhere I've bowled except Vegas. And in Vegas...I still was hooking into the pocket...just more of an "up and in" shot between 1st and 2nd arrows...versus between 2nd and 3rd arrows. The ONLY time I've ever had to throw left (direction) at the pocket (versus hooking) is if we're talking about carrydown from open/cosmic/ glow bowling where the lanes just have essentially oil smeared all the way down the lane through the backends...not something I've encountered in league play.
    Now this is where your not thinking about the actual setup of the lanes and the effect of your movements. Lets start with your shot shape I think we can agree your starting position is pretty flat your line is straight down the lane or close to it. Now you move 4 boards right with your feet an 2 with your eyes what happens to the shape of your shot? it's not constant it changes and it goes from straight to inverted. Now lets imagine the shape of the oil pattern most THS patterns are Christmas tree shaped so the farther left your ball is and the earlier it gets to that point the longer the oil pattern plays so now we are longer in the oil. On most THS patterns the farther left the ball is the heavier the oil pattern is in number of units so now if your ball is traveling right to left down the lane the ball is actually traversing more oil in length and volume.

    Add on to this simple human nature if any part of our ball hits close to anywhere near our target (especially 40 ft down the lane where we can't see as well) we tend to think we hit our target forgetting the fact that the ball is 1.5 boards wide. If you are truly at 7 there is a gap between the ball and the marker down the lane. I think I've already established by your moves the ball should be farther right than at the break point than what it is and a ball that should be at 7 your thinking should be at 9 and then human nature is kicking in by looking at the ball my guess on those shots you think carry down the middle of the ball is probably at 10 or even 11 but your mind shows the edge of the ball at 9 so you think it's ok. Take a ball like your Innovate a weaker ball with a lot of polish now traveling through longer and higher volume oil that your trying to help get to the pocket because you don't have full confidence in and it misses right at the pins and your like whoa carry down. You change to the Scandal Pearl a ball you do have confidence in one it handles the oil better even if it is in that higher/longer area and since you believe in it the natural tendency is to be a little more free with the swing and miracle carry down solved.
    I've seen and heard of ALL kinds of moves right and left. Like I said, the moves and adjustments I tend to make are based on two factors:
    1) The adjustments I was taught by Missy Parkin. She actually has an adjustment spreadsheet/worksheet that gives you lateral moves based on certain leaves. It's GREATLY helped in my adjustments. Before being taught about the adjustments I SHOULD make...I was all over the place trying to adjust.

    2) I sometimes make small moves...half board boves....1:1s right...vertical targeting chagnes...little things to help depending on well the ball is hitting the pocket...even I'm technically striking. These aren't moves that have been "taught"...these are moves that I'm trying to perfect and are based on actual experience and stuff I've read. Suzie Minshew's article in BTM actually introduced me to the concept of vertical targeting changes.
    Well I read the article by Suzie a while back but I can't remember enough about it to debate it but in simple THS bowling I think you might be better served by simplifying. Move right for hook move left to keep your line. Moves right 1:1 to move the break point right once you've found the hook on the lane move 2-1 left keeping the simple breakpoint where the hook is. DO this at least until it doesn't work if you know a break point of 9 works why do you want to test out 10 or 8 virgin territory? If that doesn't work then try your more unusual moves. It'll keep you from starting with a line that straight and ending up with one that is traveling left across the lane. You'll have less washouts, better carry, and low and behold carry down will disappear.
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  3. #23
    Bowling God Aslan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bowl1820 View Post
    You might want to read Coach J. Merrill's reply to my thread "Carrydown or Depletion? What to look for" on bowlingchat.

    It's a very thorough and easy to understand reply on the subject.
    It's essentially what Rob was proposing. To tell the difference, you have to make a ball change and see what happens...which, like I was pointing out, means you need two shots to see the problem and another two shots with the new ball to figure out if it's carrydown or depletion. If you're wrong...the good news is you probably will know what to do with the remainder of the 6 frames...although, that's also true if you're right I suppose.

    Quote Originally Posted by RobLV1 View Post
    Aslan: Your ability to overthink things boggles the mind! If you throw a shot and still can't tell if you threw it too hard or missed it at the bottom, then what's the difference if it's carry down or burn?
    I'm sorry bowling great! I didn't realize you've reached Iceman status and never throw a bad shot...or even a shot that wasn't absolutely perfect. Must be nice!

    Quote Originally Posted by RobLV1 View Post
    Of course, as long as you insist on evaluating your practice sessions by your score, you can't do this.
    You must miss the parts of my practice evaluation where I look at the entire effort as an almost complete failure if I miss even one single-pin. I keep track of scores because ignoring them doesn't add value. I also play low-ball where the goal is to score as low as possible. I also used to take lessons twice a month and couldn't tell you what any of the scores were.

    I'm pretty comfortable about the work I put into my game versus just about anyone on this site...even you. Ironically, it's only you and Ice that are critical of my efforts. You want me to practice a line that I'll rarely ever need to use on a THS...Ice wants me to stop practicing and start using placebo supplements and channeling aliens. I'm starting to wonder who's more correct. I'm still leaning "you"; however...because having an additional line to play in my toolbox is probably beneficial at some point.

    I 'kid' Rob...but Rob is incorrect in his criticism of my game. I DO try very hard. I DO try different approaches and lines. I DO take his advice and data seriously. But the bottom line is:
    1) I ball "UP" due to what I perceive as "carrydown"...and it works. Rob tells me there is no such thing and even if there is to ignore it. I'm SEEING one thing...I'm HEARING numerous professionals talk about carrydown...yet Rob gets irritated if I respond to the carrydown discussion in any other way than, "Yes sir. I'll change my line immediately!"
    2) I've moved inside...a LOT...buying into the idea of depletion. I'm NOT the typical frustrating bowler that targets 2nd arrow come Hell or high water. I'm listening...I'm learning...I'm trying. But thus far...it's been unsuccessful. Maybe I'm moving too quickly. Maybe my moves need to be altered so not to end up with too extreme an angle. But I take a LOT of criticism for a guy that IS trying AND listening.

    Quote Originally Posted by Amyers View Post
    Mines the opposite I find I need to move further in quickly if I don't get warmed up good as I tend to be getting around the ball better on ball 8 than I was on ball 4
    I tend to throw "hot" early on...so the more practice I can get in...not only does it help get me balanced...but it allows me to tire out a bit and get my speed down from the 17.9mph to the 15.9mph range...which gives my ball a chance to actually "move" a bit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Amyers View Post
    Add on to this simple human nature if any part of our ball hits close to anywhere near our target (especially 40 ft down the lane where we can't see as well) we tend to think we hit our target forgetting the fact that the ball is 1.5 boards wide...and a ball that should be at 7 your thinking should be at 9 and then human nature is kicking in by looking at the ball my guess on those shots you think carry down the middle of the ball is probably at 10 or even 11 but your mind shows the edge of the ball at 9 so you think it's ok. Take a ball like your Innovate a weaker ball with a lot of polish now traveling through longer and higher volume oil that your trying to help get to the pocket because you don't have full confidence in and it misses right at the pins and your like whoa carry down. You change to the Scandal Pearl a ball you do have confidence in one it handles the oil better even if it is in that higher/longer area and since you believe in it the natural tendency is to be a little more free with the swing and miracle carry down solved.
    At the end of the day...if you diagram the shots in my example...the laydown was between 11-15...the target at the arrows was between 9-11...and the breakpoint was between 7-9.

    Like you said...that, for the sake of the example, was assuming that the ball was actually hitting that breakpoint...precisely. Like you touched on...if I could hit a 2-board target at 40ft on every single shot...I'd probably be averaging well over 195 at this point. But, if you diagram the lines on a printout of a lane, to scale...you'll see that this is a rather small "lane" that all 3 balls are being thrown in. The laydown varies by 4 boards and the target/breakpoint by 2 boards. All the moves I noted...which seem like a lot of moving around...only net a 4-board area at the foul line and a 2-board change downlane.

    That's just how I've had the most success playing a THS. Find a line that works well for your speed/arsenal/rev rate...have a ball that you can ball down to when there is some "depletion"...then have a ball you can ball up to when/if there is carrydown. With MY game...if I find myself on league night laying the ball down left of center...targeting deeper than 3rd arrow...trying to get my pearls/polished balls to bounce off 12...it's usually a sign that I'm having a BAD night.

    Rob is probably right...there's definitely value in developing that inside line...and it'll certainly be necessary as I try to climb the ladder and bowl in more and more competitive environments. But, my game just isn't there yet. I've tried it...absolutely. And it's failed miserably. I recall a Saturday night colored tournament where I was well inside of where I normally played...and it was so miserable that a former PBA regional player sort of asked me if he could give me some advice and told me the line I was playing was crazy extreme and I needed to straighten out my line and move right.
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  4. #24

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    Once again, Aslan, you misconstrue! I've said it to you, and I've said it publicly, but I'll say it again: I AM A TERRIBLE BOWLER! That has nothing to do with my ability to coach as I have coached several players on the PBA50 Tour as well as the Regional Tours. When I tell you that you should be able to tell when your speed is off or you miss the shot at the bottom, it's because I know how much you bowl and how seriously you take it, and I compare your reactions to others who I have coached, not myself. Unfortunately, you want everything to be something that can be analyzed and a list made. You really need to stop being oblivious to how bowling FEELS, even though it is not something that can be calculated.

  5. #25
    Bowling God Aslan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobLV1 View Post
    You really need to stop being oblivious to how bowling FEELS, even though it is not something that can be calculated.
    I'm getting better at it. I'm now starting to "feel" when I'm getting more hand in the shot...which was something I used to be unable to really "feel"...I used to have to just "assume" based on the result.

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