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Thread: Lofting?!?!

  1. #11
    High Roller vdubtx's Avatar
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    Yeah, withdrawing from event before you even try the squad is a cop out I think. Yes, he has been on tour for a long time, but come on. Go out and experience the condition for your self, not by what others are doing and telling you about the condition.
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    Quote Originally Posted by vdubtx View Post
    Yeah, withdrawing from event before you even try the squad is a cop out I think. Yes, he has been on tour for a long time, but come on. Go out and experience the condition for your self, not by what others are doing and telling you about the condition.
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  3. #13
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    Not being a Ryan Shafer fan I will tell you I have his back on this one.

  4. #14
    Bowling God Aslan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobLV1 View Post
    Please permit me to paste yesterday's Facebook post from former U.S. Open Champion, Robert Smith:
    The game is hard to watch because the is no resemblance of bowling. No one at home can throw a ball 20 ft on the fly, and if they do they will be kicked out of their bowling center. Make it normal again USBC. please."
    Agree 100%!

    The game has changed far too much, far too quickly, and no longer resembles the sport it was 60-70 years ago. I know we've had this conversation 1000x...and trying to tame equipment is probably a lost cause...but something has to be done and it likely has to be oil conditions. The equipment manufacturers will never pull back...especially when there is demand by players with less rev rate for balls that will help them hook. And getting rid of 2-handed bowling...blah blah blah...insert fight of the century if we bring that topic up. The ONLY option is for the USBC to take a new, stronger approach to oil patterns.

    I don't know enough about patterns to offer a solution...many have been offered here and elsewhere...but it's getting rediculous (a word I can't spell). The worst part is...PRACTICE. When oil patterns are SO SO SO important to the ultimate ball reaction...then serious bowlers can't ever practice on league conditions other than the 10-15 minutes before league play. "Practice" becomes spending an hour trying to figure out if your form/timing/release is off...your line is off...or the lane is either bone dry or the oil has been pushed to the breakpoint by house balls.

    Quote Originally Posted by bowl1820 View Post
    Heres Ryan Shafer's post on why he withdrew.

    Ryan Shafer
    October 28 at 6:19pm ·

    After watching B squad tonight and seeing the progression of the lanes, I have decided to WD from the US Open. Due to my physical limitations ( lack of significant ball speed, and plantar fasciitis and carpal tunnel) I determined it was counter productive to try and compete to the best of my ability on that condition. As it has been determined it is “ a required element” in today’s game to loft the gutter at the the US Open, I am no longer capable of doing that without potentially hurting myself. I would prefer to prepare for the WSOB in Reno starting November 6. It pains me to do this as I have always looked forward to this event and really wanted to win one of these in my career. But that time has passed. Thank you to all my family , friends and fans who came to watch this week. I apologize for my performance, or lack thereof .


    I got to say, People seeing all that guttercap lofting and players withdrawing so they don't get hurt or embarrassed playing on this mess before the WSOB and all the upcoming bowling, isn't going to help the perception of bowling.
    Quote Originally Posted by vdubtx View Post
    Yeah, withdrawing from event before you even try the squad is a cop out I think. Yes, he has been on tour for a long time, but come on. Go out and experience the condition for your self, not by what others are doing and telling you about the condition.
    Normally I don't like the idea either...but he's not the first person to withdraw due to injury concerns...and when you got silly stuff like this going on...I can see his point.

    Quote Originally Posted by fordman1 View Post
    Not being a Ryan Shafer fan I will tell you I have his back on this one.
    Agree.
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    Similar to many of our discussions, this is just a tough situation; there are so many factors that are causing this and for the most part you can't do anything. Laying out the concerns brought up you have the following; equipment advances, lane conditions, lane specifications, 2-handed bowling, and bowler ability.

    The bowling community is not going to do anything more to limit the bowling equipment - bowling companies would go nuts if you messed with this "wonderful" situation of bowlers replacing equipment at an astonishing rate to run and grab the newest piece. While there would be a rush to grab a bunch on equipment if there was an announcement about grandfathering equipment that was already in the market this would be short-lived. I do think this is the second biggest problem, but the hit to the equipment market may be too much to bear at this point.

    2-handed bowling/bowler ability is another discussion point. While we would be naïve to think that equipment doesn't play a major factor into scoring, there is a thought that the bowlers are getting better. Compared to the 90s there are so many more resources to get information on the game and coaching. There are sites like this one and bowling this month that has the information at your fingertips. YouTube allows someone to sit at home and watch instructional and competitions on demand. You can even send in videos of your bowling to a certified coach and get legit advice. Two handed bowling also creates a roll advantage (there are also some disadvantages) that can increase scoring, especially when encountering easier conditions.

    Talking about lane specifications not matching the current projection of the game is a moot point. You can't have all of these bowling alleys changing specifications because of the upfront cost.

    That leaves lane conditions as the solution/Band-Aid to this problem, but that has problems itself. For almost any house you can set up the conditions to avoid the lofting situation you see here if that is what you want to do, the tour players wouldn't have a problem with harder conditions. The issue is the moment a house changes a condition in a league it takes two weeks of under average bowling (essentially any 215 average bowler who should really be a 200 at best) and they will whine non-stop about the situation. The expectation has been set to these bowlers from the other factors that they are a certain level bowler and they can't handle the fact that they are not as good as they believe. I have seen this with Nationals, Arizona State Tournament, etc. - bowlers can't blindly go up there and hit 210 they don't want to go back. Arizona State a few years back put down the White and Blue patterns (nothing crazy) and made the patterns public. All that happened was you watched bowler after bowler crumble because they didn't have 4-5 boards of area and afterwards many complained that they will never return.

    Many bowlers anymore just want to walk in, never work on their game, and shoot big scores. And to those who will complain that they don't have the time to practice twice a week to get to this level (an argument I have seen on this site during the last discussion I had on this), a scratch golfer doesn't just walk on the course and shot 72 they work on it.
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  6. #16
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    You could ban 2 handed bowling before it is the only style you see.
    Ban stepping off your approach. Use a side foul line you can't to out side the out side edge of the gutter or it is a foul. Even oil patterns can be adjusted. Lofting the ball too far down the lane.

  7. #17
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    Obviously oil patterns can be adjusted, that is clearly the main answer with this. The other solutions I have issues with:

    No 2 handed bowling: Basically the telecast has marveled over this style of bowling and it has been around long enough that it is tough to say "get rid of it". Jason Belmonte's first title was in 2009, so that is 8 years in which bowlers could start emulating him after he won, there are a lot of junior bowlers who bowl like this, and to do so will likely remove a decent chunk of the younger bowling population.

    Limiting the horizontal ranges of the lanes requires all bowling alleys to install new foul lights and puts risk to any long-form event for high rev bowlers (once the oil is gone in the middle you are toast in this scenario). Also, with the new foul lights you have to make sure the trail leg does not set these off. The logistics alone are going to be tough to enforce this change due to the new equipment costs.

    How far is too far for lofting down the lane, also this would require more equipment to track a legal vs. illegal shot.

    When you say "stepping off your approach" are you talking about not posting the shot (as in falling off at release)? While this is a good bowling key to follow, first enforcement would be a nightmare and second how to you react to some sticking or sliding too much on the approach and catching themselves? If you are talking about starting behind the "line" of an approach that doesn't have a step up you are again asking for a lot of enforcement to be added.

    ***You cannot do any of the illegal shot tracking by eye, it has to be determined by machine or you will have so many issues with "close" situations.
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  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by ALazySavage View Post

    When you say "stepping off your approach" are you talking about not posting the shot (as in falling off at release)? While this is a good bowling key to follow, first enforcement would be a nightmare and second how to you react to some sticking or sliding too much on the approach and catching themselves? If you are talking about starting behind the "line" of an approach that doesn't have a step up you are again asking for a lot of enforcement to be added.

    ***You cannot do any of the illegal shot tracking by eye, it has to be determined by machine or you will have so many issues with "close" situations.
    I think what Fordman1 means is that bowlers should have to stay on their own approach and not drift over onto the approach of the next lane over to loft the gutter cap. Might still be hard to enforce. I'd be fine with such a rule as long as it only covered your slide foot. If it was no part of your body could encroach on the next lane's approach I would probably commit a lateral foul with my trail leg every time I shot at a ten pin.
    John

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aslan View Post
    Agree 100%!

    The game has changed far too much, far too quickly, and no longer resembles the sport it was 60-70 years ago. I know we've had this conversation 1000x...and trying to tame equipment is probably a lost cause...but something has to be done and it likely has to be oil conditions. The equipment manufacturers will never pull back...especially when there is demand by players with less rev rate for balls that will help them hook. And getting rid of 2-handed bowling...blah blah blah...insert fight of the century if we bring that topic up. The ONLY option is for the USBC to take a new, stronger approach to oil patterns.

    I don't know enough about patterns to offer a solution...many have been offered here and elsewhere...but it's getting rediculous (a word I can't spell). The worst part is...PRACTICE. When oil patterns are SO SO SO important to the ultimate ball reaction...then serious bowlers can't ever practice on league conditions other than the 10-15 minutes before league play. "Practice" becomes spending an hour trying to figure out if your form/timing/release is off...your line is off...or the lane is either bone dry or the oil has been pushed to the breakpoint by house balls.
    What do you mean "60-70 years ago"? It doesn't resemble what it was 40 years ago.

    As for practice, yes, it would be nice to practice on lane conditions similar to what you're going to encounter in league, not necessarily fresh oil all the time but maybe like the start of the second game in a league with 5 person teams. Realistically, most centers don't have enough serious bowlers to warrant oiling for open bowling. Should that stop us from practicing? No!
    There are things you can practice when you're not even at the bowling alley. I bough a Summer Pass for the local Bowlero. The kindest thing I can say is that conditions were variable. The only constants were the noise level and the dim lighting. When the approaches were bad I worked on one step and no step drills. When the approaches were okay, I worked on other things.
    John

  10. #20
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    John is correct. Just bowl on your lane. Don't use the bowlers lane next to you for your approach. Funny how those same bowlers (lofters) can throw the ball at their spares with lofting the gutter. You wouldn't get away with that in my league. The manager is on my team

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