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Thread: ball reaction vs inconsistent bowler?

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aslan View Post
    I guess my point is...if you always bowl at the SAME HOUSE...same THS...same lane surfaces (other than slight variations from pair to pair)...you should have a pretty darn good idea what ball to start with.

    Now, I bowl at different centers...but I have notes regarding my starting feet/target positions. So, for example, if I'm at House A, I might start out in practice standing with my left toe on 18 and my target at 7-8 just above the dots. At House B, I may start out with my left toe at 20 and my target midway between the dots and the arrows at 9. So, I vary where I stand.

    When I bowled 2-3 times a week at one center...which had lanes on two sides of the house (and they tend to play differently when on two sides of a house versus one side)...I had bowled league on almost every lane...multiple times...so I actually had a chart of where to stand and aim...for every single lane. Some nights I may have to adjust a little in practice...then I update the chart. But I almost never needed to start with a different ball...and the 1-3 times I DID...I think the center either forgot or decided not to oil before league.

    I guess thats my point...if you bowl the same house (90% do)...THS (98% do)...and the league applies fresh oil prior to league play (I'd say 90% do)...how are your lanes changing so much night to night?

    That's why I recommended that Boatman put some distance between his 1st two balls. A Conspiracy at 2000 and a Kingpin at 3000...those are essentially the same ball with essentially the same surface. It's gonna be a toss up as to which one is the better choice any given night. But if he took that Kingpin surface to 2500 and hit it with Royal Compound on the spinner...I think the Kingpin would be noticeably shinier and he'd get a better gap between ball #1 and ball #2...at which point he'd probably never want to start with the Kingpin...because it would probably go too long on the fresh.

    Thats what I'm trying to figure out. The Kingpin was at 500 before and it was slightly stronger than the Conspiracy. Before league the other night I hit it with 3000 real quick (like 10 seconds). I bowl at the same house except the one tournament I entered. Lanes have been a little drier the last couple weeks for some reason which is why I hit the kingpin with 3000. It was about equal to the Conspiracy then. Going to see if my PSO has compound in stock and maybe throw the Kingpin on his spinner before we start. I don't have a 2500 pad. I went 2000 on the spinner cause I was thinking 2000 wet on the spinner would probably be close to 3000 dry for 10 seconds by hand?

    Summer league starts this Tuesday and there are only 4 of us on a pair and we get 10 minutes of practice so should give me a chance to dial it in
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  2. #22

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    Boatman: Please don't get sidetracked by Aslan's discussions of ball "progressions." It's nonsense! You cannot "create" order in the chaotic world of bowling; no matter how hard you try. The only order that you can create is within yourself by accepting the chaos and learning to deal with it.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobLV1 View Post
    Boatman: Please don't get sidetracked by Aslan's discussions of ball "progressions." It's nonsense! You cannot "create" order in the chaotic world of bowling; no matter how hard you try. The only order that you can create is within yourself by accepting the chaos and learning to deal with it.
    lol. I create my own chaos. But yeah the Kingpin and Conspiracy were almost identical and had a big gap up to the BWG so wanted something that I could use in the 3rd game. Lanes have been drier the last couple weeks and get worse as the night goes on so wanted an option for then. But yeah, with my inconsistency it's hard to say ball A will do this and ball B will do that
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    Rev Rate about 270 @ about 15.5 MPH at the pins* High Game: 290 - High Series: 733. PAP: 5 1/8"x1" up; tilt 20*, rotation 75*. YTD highs - 290-733
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  4. #24
    Bowling God Aslan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by boatman37 View Post
    Thats what I'm trying to figure out. The Kingpin was at 500 before and it was slightly stronger than the Conspiracy.
    Yes, the ball with identical specs when at a 500 surface is goingo to be 'stronger (actually, not stronger, just hook sooner) than the ball with identical specs at 2000.

    Quote Originally Posted by boatman37 View Post
    Before league the other night I hit it with 3000 real quick (like 10 seconds).
    By hand I'm assuming...which is the equivalent of rolling on the carpet.

    Quote Originally Posted by boatman37 View Post
    I bowl at the same house except the one tournament I entered. Lanes have been a little drier the last couple weeks for some reason which is why I hit the kingpin with 3000. It was about equal to the Conspiracy then.
    Like I said...the Kingpin at 3000 and Conspiracy at 2000...is essentially the same ball and there isn't enough of a noticeable difference with that minor surface difference.

    Quote Originally Posted by boatman37 View Post
    Going to see if my PSO has compound in stock and maybe throw the Kingpin on his spinner before we start. I don't have a 2500 pad.
    I don't think they make a 2500 pad...maybe they do. Just use a used 2000 and it should be about 2500.

    Quote Originally Posted by boatman37 View Post
    I went 2000 on the spinner cause I was thinking 2000 wet on the spinner would probably be close to 3000 dry for 10 seconds by hand?
    I would say that is 98% incorrect. 10 seconds by hand with a 3000 pad is about the same as it bouncing around in your bag on the way to the lanes...or your bowling towel having dust on it. It doesn't do anything. Hand sanding is essentially useless...and it's mathematically useless...see:

    A ball spinner uses horepower to spin a ball at revolutions per minute (RPMs). Most personal ball spinners, like Innovative, have a single speed of 435-475 RPMs. My ball spinner is a 2-speed and runs at 450 or 650. To properly surface the ball on a ball spinner, to lets say 2500 in this example...you would wet sand 4 sides at 500, then 4 sides at 1000, then 4 sides with a used 2000.

    Now lets say, you just hit it with the one 2500 pad...and don't do the other two grits...for about 11 seconds per side...cuz you're in a hurry. Thats 44 seconds at 475rpms = 348 1/3 revolutions.

    Now, consider that you can at LEAST double that number in terms of effect...because when you sand with a spinner you are applying at LEAST double the pressure...so that's essentially equal to 696 2/3 revolutions by hand.

    Now, try to spin a ball in your hand. I'm OLD...not RobM or Iceman old...but I'm gettin up there...and I can only spin that ball maybe 30 times before I get tired. Let's say you're young and amazingly in shape....and can do 4x that...okay....thats 120 times.

    120/696.6666 - ).1722 so approximately 17.25% as effective. And that's with me estimating as conservative as possible and not factoring in the other two levels of sanding that I WOULD DO...at 500 and 1000....nor my 3x (versus double) pressure because I have my ball spinner on the floor and get more leverage.

    So, in that example...a ball spinner is at LEAST 5.8x (5.8*120 = 696) more effective...at LEAST.

    Quote Originally Posted by RobLV1 View Post
    Boatman: Please don't get sidetracked by Aslan's discussions of ball "progressions." It's nonsense! You cannot "create" order in the chaotic world of bowling; no matter how hard you try. The only order that you can create is within yourself by accepting the chaos and learning to deal with it.
    Okay Jeff Goldblum in Jurrassic Park.
    Last edited by Aslan; 05-04-2019 at 06:01 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aslan View Post
    Yes, the ball with identical specs when at a 500 surface is goingo to be 'stronger (actually, not stronger, just hook sooner) than the ball with identical specs at 2000.
    Maybe this is a pearl thing, but I was thinking that there is an oil/slip factor and a surface contact effect as well. Maybe the OP rolled at different times or at different target areas. I know if I wet polish a pearl with slipping agent I get more of a sharp angle at the pins than if I then hit the same ball with wet 2000 after that, both hitting the same target area (maybe 10 minutes apart).

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    Quote Originally Posted by RobLV1 View Post
    Boatman: Please don't get sidetracked by Aslan's discussions of ball "progressions." It's nonsense! You cannot "create" order in the chaotic world of bowling; no matter how hard you try. The only order that you can create is within yourself by accepting the chaos and learning to deal with it.
    LOL!!

    Absolutely agree with Rob. There is no ball progression that will be the same week in and week out. You play the lane and use the best ball for what the reaction is showing you when you roll it.
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  7. #27
    Bowling God Aslan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vdubtx View Post
    LOL!!

    Absolutely agree with Rob. There is no ball progression that will be the same week in and week out. You play the lane and use the best ball for what the reaction is showing you when you roll it.
    By all means...please fill us in on how you apply this chaos theory on league night.

    How does one go through multiple approaches, hand positions, lines, and an 8-ball arsenal in 10 minutes of practice time??

    Mathematically, there are 189 potential combinations. Even if you have the lanes to yourself in that 10 minutes of practice...you'd need to throw 18.9 shots (per lane...due to lane-to-lane variation) per minute. Are you "The Flash"? Can "The Flash" even vary his ball speed? I dunno...never thought about it.

    i mean, I don't disagree...trying 189 different potential combinations....with enough time...one could theoretically determine the absolute best release, line, speed, and ball for each side of the pair. You could be doing a 3-step approach with 45 degrees hand hand tilt, 16.2 mph, with your sanded solid Storm ball in the left side of the pair...and a 5-step approach, with a flattened hand position, throwing 17.9mph, with your polished Hammer ball on the right side of the pair...and it would be PERFECTION...

    ...granted...it's absurd. Completely absurd. Mathematically and logistically impossible. Which is why nearly every PBA pro...without one exception I can think of...uses a progression system. Now, granted, they have a day of practice before tournaments, a truck full of bowling ball options, and a team of ball reps to help them put together the best progression for the tournament they are participating in...but at the end of the day...they have a finite set of equipment...they have balls they start with...and balls they go to next...and balls they go to next, etc... It's not stubbornness of failure to recognize the multitude of variables...it's simply strategy that maximizes their chances at making the correct adjustments.

    Last time I checked...the bowler in the stepladder finals gets a small number of shots before the next round starts....not a 2-hour practice session on each lane to go through every ball in the truck (or even in their bag).

    As I've said before...I give RobM an A+ in theory, an A in originality...but a D in practicality concerning his "chaos theory" approach to ball selection and ball transition. And I find it "odd" that his chaos theory applies to ball selection...but not bowler to bowler observations. In other words, I can't trust what a certain ball might do or what ball might be the "best option" given limited shots in practice...but I'm supposed to be able to learn everything I need to know about how to play the lanes by watching 3-4 random bowlers that are also bowling on the pair. I'm supposed to trust their breakpoint....and discount the line they took to get there...the speed they took to get there...the revs they were at once they got there...and the difference in the ball they were throwing.

    The "progression system" is used by every pro in the game...it was taught to me by a pro...it's referenced in Rob Johnson's recent videos Bowl1820 posted...so I have no second thoughts about advocating for it. Does everyone have their own way of using that progression system to ultimately select the ball they start with on league night (or at a tournament)...sure. But, at the end of the day...even if you have a ton of time and are a "chaos theory" person...just ask yourself what % of time you used the same ball to start on league night at a given house on a THS. Go ahead...calculate the %...I'd be SHOCKED if anyone had a % lower than 80%....SHOCKED. The center, the THS, the lanes...they don't change that much...they CAN'T change that much. It's the same guy with the same oil machine using the same oil. Sure, there are fluctuations based on temperature and humidity and topography...but enough for a person to switch to urethane from resin? From a 2.49RG to a 2.57 RG? If your THS on league night is changing THAT much...something is up. A broken oil machine...a drunk lane maintenance guy...maybe Iceman with a mop???
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  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aslan View Post
    By all means...please fill us in on how you apply this chaos theory on league night.

    How does one go through multiple approaches, hand positions, lines, and an 8-ball arsenal in 10 minutes of practice time??

    Mathematically, there are 189 potential combinations. Even if you have the lanes to yourself in that 10 minutes of practice...you'd need to throw 18.9 shots (per lane...due to lane-to-lane variation) per minute. Are you "The Flash"? Can "The Flash" even vary his ball speed? I dunno...never thought about it.

    i mean, I don't disagree...trying 189 different potential combinations....with enough time...one could theoretically determine the absolute best release, line, speed, and ball for each side of the pair. You could be doing a 3-step approach with 45 degrees hand hand tilt, 16.2 mph, with your sanded solid Storm ball in the left side of the pair...and a 5-step approach, with a flattened hand position, throwing 17.9mph, with your polished Hammer ball on the right side of the pair...and it would be PERFECTION...

    ...granted...it's absurd. Completely absurd. Mathematically and logistically impossible. Which is why nearly every PBA pro...without one exception I can think of...uses a progression system. Now, granted, they have a day of practice before tournaments, a truck full of bowling ball options, and a team of ball reps to help them put together the best progression for the tournament they are participating in...but at the end of the day...they have a finite set of equipment...they have balls they start with...and balls they go to next...and balls they go to next, etc... It's not stubbornness of failure to recognize the multitude of variables...it's simply strategy that maximizes their chances at making the correct adjustments.

    Last time I checked...the bowler in the stepladder finals gets a small number of shots before the next round starts....not a 2-hour practice session on each lane to go through every ball in the truck (or even in their bag).

    As I've said before...I give RobM an A+ in theory, an A in originality...but a D in practicality concerning his "chaos theory" approach to ball selection and ball transition. And I find it "odd" that his chaos theory applies to ball selection...but not bowler to bowler observations. In other words, I can't trust what a certain ball might do or what ball might be the "best option" given limited shots in practice...but I'm supposed to be able to learn everything I need to know about how to play the lanes by watching 3-4 random bowlers that are also bowling on the pair. I'm supposed to trust their breakpoint....and discount the line they took to get there...the speed they took to get there...the revs they were at once they got there...and the difference in the ball they were throwing.

    The "progression system" is used by every pro in the game...it was taught to me by a pro...it's referenced in Rob Johnson's recent videos Bowl1820 posted...so I have no second thoughts about advocating for it. Does everyone have their own way of using that progression system to ultimately select the ball they start with on league night (or at a tournament)...sure. But, at the end of the day...even if you have a ton of time and are a "chaos theory" person...just ask yourself what % of time you used the same ball to start on league night at a given house on a THS. Go ahead...calculate the %...I'd be SHOCKED if anyone had a % lower than 80%....SHOCKED. The center, the THS, the lanes...they don't change that much...they CAN'T change that much. It's the same guy with the same oil machine using the same oil. Sure, there are fluctuations based on temperature and humidity and topography...but enough for a person to switch to urethane from resin? From a 2.49RG to a 2.57 RG? If your THS on league night is changing THAT much...something is up. A broken oil machine...a drunk lane maintenance guy...maybe Iceman with a mop???
    Vdub and Rob are not stating you should try 189 different combos. If I take three balls with me on league night if I throw my Badger Claw down my line it hits the pocket but I don't like the way it hits. I can pick up my Ridiculous pearl move 4-2 right it's a strike if I pull out my Einstein it's a 1-1 move left in the pocket. It's not about figuring out how to bowl it's about understanding your arsenal. Every ball you own will get to the pocket with an adjustment. Know your arsenal
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  9. #29
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    Not trying to receive the wrath of anyone on this post, but I am going to map out what I did on my last night of house shot league and the different choices I went through in order to show an alternative way to the progression method that Aslan is mentioning (I apologize in advance that this is going to be a little lengthy)…

    Bowling in a Tuesday night "mom-and-pop" fun league on the high end of the house with a THS - other than two pairs, the majority on this side play similar.

    1. As I always do, I started with my benchmark ball (a symmetrical core ball with 2-3k surface). I will throw a few shots (2/3) following Susie Minshew's recommended lines to read what the ball wants to do. A few things that can change on the lanes week to week for me are how I feel physically, if they stripped the lanes or applied a fill shot, topography, and if the lane person decided to put down a slightly different shot.
    2. Depending on how these shots rolled I can either stay with my benchmark ball, gain some length typically by throwing a polished ball (if I need more angle or feel the ball is picking up early), or go "nuclear" and take an asymmetrical with surface. I did want a little more length but wanted the back end pop so I went with the asymm with polish.
    3. This option worked for a while, but bowling against a team with less ball speed and a lot of surface created fronts that I didn't want to play with anymore. They were typically up the track so I fortunately had two decisions - [a] move left with a potential ball change, [b] move right and try to swing around what they created, or [c] just make a ball change. I did have one teammate left of me and I knew they had a good reaction so I decided to move left with the same ball.
    4. Moving inside I found that I could not get the ball to pick up as early as I personally like and I was getting a very volatile reaction on the backends (conserving too much energy). Knowing I did not want to go back to the warzone being created around the track I ended up "balling up" to the solid asymmetrical (this is where I have personal issues with the progression method, in theory it works when you are staying in the same part of the lane but if you make a move and encounter a different volume of oil you can find yourself in trouble since it essentially eliminates balling up. And I would say that 50% of bowlers (conservative?) don't seem to know how to move so you can often find fried fronts and relatively untouched fronts pretty close to each other). Other moves would have been to ball down to my polished symmetrical try to force it through the trash created (or even hope that outside of it would work, although once this burns out I'm in a lot of trouble with a huge move in my future), keep the same ball and slow down ball speed, adjust tilt, etc.
    5. At the end I ended up going back to the asymm polished ball once I personally ate up the front oil a little bit and was able to swing the ball and create a shape I preferred. Many of the people around the track stayed there and created a nightmare of a shot in that area and their scores reflected that.


    I'm not saying that the way I do things works better than a progression method or any other method, just showing a situation where a progression would not have worked - if applied I would not have balled up to a solid assym ball which was what the lanes were presenting as the correct option. The benefit of the progression is creating a path to make decisions easier, but sometimes it forces you into the wrong choice/eliminates the best choice. We bowl against different teams, different bowlers, and different equipment each week and the lanes will not always break down in the same manner.
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  10. #30

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    100% agree with Amyers. There's no good reason to fiddle with as many variables as you're saying, Aslan. You have a ball that's going to give you a read of the lanes, change balls or move if you don't like it. Play the line the lanes are giving you!

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